Cadillac Dangles $5,000 to Lincoln Owners to Get Into An Escalade

Cadillac should be scared of the new Navi.  This proves they indeed are.

Get ‘em before the Navigator gets here and eats their lunch 

The roles with their playas has been reversed from 1999...

The Navi was king in 1999 and the 'Slade was the awkward new kid in town...

Did not take long for the new kid to become king rendering the former champ awkward...

Fastfoward in 2018...the former champ is looking to dethrone the current champ restoring its rightful place to sit on the throne that was his originally.

Irony at its best.

I LOVE IT!!!

What percentage of Lincoln buyers buy another Lincoln?  Is their owner loyalty so great or will more new Navigator buyers come from other brands?  This I don't know, but not sure you need to offer $5,000 to Lincoln owners, when there are fewer Lincoln owners out there than there are Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes owners.

If I were Cadillac I'd be more concerned with new 2019 Mercedes GLS + Maybach trim, and all new BMW X7.   First all new G-wagen in 40 years next year too, although at a price class above Navigator.

Smart move to check the old king!

13 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Get ‘em before the Navigator gets here and eats their lunch 

Quoted for absolute ungodly truth of the statement.  I despise Ford and Lincoln, but even I will have to admit they ahve a winner on their hands with the new Navi.

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

What percentage of Lincoln buyers buy another Lincoln?  Is their owner loyalty so great or will more new Navigator buyers come from other brands?  This I don't know, but not sure you need to offer $5,000 to Lincoln owners, when there are fewer Lincoln owners out there than there are Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes owners.

If I were Cadillac I'd be more concerned with new 2019 Mercedes GLS + Maybach trim, and all new BMW X7.   First all new G-wagen in 40 years next year too, although at a price class above Navigator.

And the Escalade outsells them all but the Navigator is really it’s closest competitor (and will be cheaper than the Slade) so this move makes more sense than worrying about the next overpriced Benz. 

9 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And the Escalade outsells them all but the Navigator is really it’s closest competitor (and will be cheaper than the Slade) so this move makes more sense than worrying about the next overpriced Benz. 

I love when the Euro fanboys always compare the much smaller GLS to the Escalade and Navigator as if they're genuinely competitive. 

I don't think Lincoln gives two $h!s about the GLS. To get Gator power in a GLS you have to start by dropping 95k. Then if the owner plans to use it for any real people moving(assuming 5+ people regularly), family vacationing, towing anything(1800lb advantage), 

It really boils down to how long it takes Lincoln to establish itself again in the segment as the leader.. in PEOPLE'S minds and how long it takes Cadillac to counter in changes. To me the Escalade is still stylistically the better looking.. Perception-ally the better vehicle. but the fact that Ford BLATANTLY bought an Escalade.. improved on its interior and drivetrain hands down.. is what's bringing in the positive notions.

GM and Caddy need to counter in 2018.. not the 2019 redesign.  We are talking about a 30HP difference and a 40 lb-ft difference in torque.. when GM has the engines to counter this easily... without really even hurting fuel economy if its calibrated properly with the 10speed. Keep in mind that the Fuel economy advantage that the Lincoln has is probably due to the extra two gears that it has from a Tranny that GM and Ford developed together. Cadillac doesn't even need to do anything other than pop out a VSPORT edition with a supercharged EcoTec 3. 520HP and 515 lb-ft just like that

The new Navigator looks to be much better than the Escalade. I'm not sure if I would even go for something like the GLS either.

Funny thing is the Navigator and Escalade will have the same transmission...presumably different tuning.  (I assume both will get the Ford-GM JV 10spd auto?)

Edited November 9, 20178 yr by Cubical-aka-Moltar

Escalade needs to do two things in this segment.

1. Up their game on the Interior and update the powertrain to equal or surpass the Navi.
2. Bring out an AWD EV version that has 300 miles + of range. 

Check and Checkmate!

Yup, the Escalade has the 10-speed already

Had to look up the GLS vs Expedition/Max dimensions(assuming Navigator will be the same but I can't find those listed yet)..

Length

GLS: 202in

Expedition: 210in

Max: 220in

Width

GLS: 76in

Expedition/Max: 83.6in (mirrors folded)

The GLS is a luxury Dodge Durango.

2018 Dodge Durango Spec

I ran out of  +1s to give in this thread. I dont have any to give since last night.

 MANY deserving posters and posts. So a shout out will have to do instead!

@surreal1272 @ccap41 @dfelt @Cmicasa the Great @A Horse With No Name @Anthony Fongaro @Cubical-aka-Moltar

Edited November 9, 20178 yr by oldshurst442

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The GLS is a luxury Dodge Durango.

2018 Dodge Durango Spec

Height	70.9 in.
Width	75.8 in.
Length	201.2 in.

Absolutely! Nailed it! 

I assume that also falls in the Explorer's territory then, size-wise? 

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Absolutely! Nailed it! 

I assume that also falls in the Explorer's territory then, size-wise? 

Sorta, the Explorer is enough wider to matter. 

GLS is 202 x 76 x 73

Escalade is 204 x 81 x 75

They are close

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The GLS is a luxury Dodge Durango.

2018 Dodge Durango Spec

Height	70.9 in.
Width	75.8 in.
Length	201.2 in.

Kind of a 3 row midsize is how I think of the Durango and GLS...(and the GC and GLE being the 2 row midsizers on the shared architecture).  The GM and Ford BOF full size SUVs just seem considerably larger, whether they are or not in all measurements..probably more perception more than reality..

Edited November 9, 20178 yr by Cubical-aka-Moltar

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

I ran out of  +1s to give in this thread. I dont have any to give since last night.

 MANY deserving posters and posts. So a shout out will have to do instead!

@surreal1272 @ccap41 @dfelt @Cmicasa the Great @A Horse With No Name @Anthony Fongaro @Cubical-aka-Moltar

 

 So True, just also hit the Upvote limit.  

4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 So True, just also hit the Upvote limit.  

I just got a couple of them back, I think?!

Its like demerit points on my drivers license....Im eagerly awaiting for time to elapse. LOL!

Edited November 9, 20178 yr by oldshurst442

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I just got a couple of them back, I think?!

Its like demerit points on my drivers license....Im eagerly awaiting for time to elapse. LOL!

Bumped everyone up to 25.  I had to keep a stricter limit before when there was abuse of the system.

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

GLS is 202 x 76 x 73

Escalade is 204 x 81 x 75

They are close

They don't feel at all close when behind the wheel. 

44 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Bumped everyone up to 25.  I had to keep a stricter limit before when there was abuse of the system.

Weird, tried to use the thanks for your post and It said I hit the limit.   Thank you still, 

56 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Weird, tried to use the thanks for your post and It said I hit the limit.   Thank you still, 

Editors and Premium subscribers get 50.  You have some odd extra groups that don't really apply to this board anymore.  I've fixed it for now for you, but I still need to clean up your account a little bit. 

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Editors and Premium subscribers get 50.  You have some odd extra groups that don't really apply to this board anymore.  I've fixed it for now for you, but I still need to clean up your account a little bit. 

Much appreciated Drew for the explanation, thank you

Yes, a huge thanks for keeping this place alive and running...

8 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

They don't feel at all close when behind the wheel. 

One feels smaller while driving because of superior ride, handling, acceleration and braking.  

But the Escalade's size must equal larger interior right?   Uh Oh...

Headroom 1st/2nd/3rd row  

Escalade 39.7 / 38.7 / 38.1

GLS        41.2 / 40.0 / 38.9

Legroom 1st/2nd/3rd row

Escalade 45.3 / 39.0 / 24.8

GLS        40.3 / 40.0 / 38.5

Total cargo volume

Escalade  94.2 cubic feet  GLS 93.8 cubic feet

No... the larger Escalade has the better feel driving around.  The GLS may stop faster, but that's about it. 

And yes... the Escalade has a larger feel inside. 

I’m totally with Casa on this one great topic. I think greatly that while the great Navigator has finally been made great again...

I’m not sure if it really is a great again game changer. The great ball is in Lincoln’s great court, and while the great Raptor engine is great...again.

I am a great V8 person when it comes to big fat stupid great SUVs, and Lincoln not having a great V8 could only be made great again if they friggin’ made a great EV 250 mile plus great luxury great fist of great pain, like great DFelt said about how great Cadillac can make the Escalade even greater again.

Just because it’s great again doesn’t make it great again.

YES. 

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

One feels smaller while driving because of superior ride, handling, acceleration and braking.  

But the Escalade's size must equal larger interior right?   Uh Oh...

Headroom 1st/2nd/3rd row  

Escalade 39.7 / 38.7 / 38.1

GLS        41.2 / 40.0 / 38.9

Legroom 1st/2nd/3rd row

Escalade 45.3 / 39.0 / 24.8

GLS        40.3 / 40.0 / 38.5

Total cargo volume

Escalade  94.2 cubic feet  GLS 93.8 cubic feet

Yeah, just leave out the fact that you can get a longer Escalade with far more cargo room. 

Btw, that jumps to 120.9 cubic feet while the Slade continues to outsell the GLS  

Uh oh indeed. 

Edited November 10, 20178 yr by surreal1272

The GLS has outsold the Escalade before in the USA, it could take it back over with a new model or if the Navigator cuts into Escalade sales.  Escalade sales saw a spike when the the Navigator tanked a few years ago.  Globally the GLS outsells all these big luxury SUVs.

OOOOOORRRRRRR the Navigator could take a bite out of GLS sales too. That goes for both parties. 

GLS needs more width, and to address the 5 " frt legroom advantage Escalade has to become more competitive.
Question is, will the Navigator eat into GLS sales?

48 minutes ago, balthazar said:

GLS needs more width, and to address the 5 " frt legroom advantage Escalade has to become more competitive.
Question is, will the Navigator eat into GLS sales?

If it's as good as some of the early reviews have made it sound, it seems like it will eat at least a little into all of the large SUV sales, regardless of brand. 

Can you guess which is the itty bitty GLS and which is the 2018 Expedition/ 'Gator?

For 73k one can get a smaller, less capable GLS with 362hp/369tq that can tow 7500lbs max or larger, more capable Navigator with a 450hp/510tq engine that can tow 9300/9000lbs and a 10spd transmission. 

_______________________________________________

I don't think Lincoln is worried about the GLS at all. They're worried more about the 'Slade and the prestige that follows its name. 

16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

One feels smaller while driving because of superior ride, handling, acceleration and braking.  

But the Escalade's size must equal larger interior right?   Uh Oh...

Headroom 1st/2nd/3rd row  

Escalade 39.7 / 38.7 / 38.1

GLS        41.2 / 40.0 / 38.9

Legroom 1st/2nd/3rd row

Escalade 45.3 / 39.0 / 24.8

GLS        40.3 / 40.0 / 38.5

Total cargo volume

Escalade  94.2 cubic feet  GLS 93.8 cubic feet

Also depending on where you measure from. Every Auto Maker seems to have a different point on where you measure from. 

GLS is tight and the seats are terrible for comfort compared to the Escalade.

My German Ass has been in both and the comfort is not there in the GLS for large people like me no matter that the so called measurements are close to the Escalades.

Why do you also not address that fact that the Escalade ESV has even more cargo room, interior passenger comfort room.

Right, MB is too scared to actually build a real competitor. Rather focus on their 40+ year old screw mismatched G-Wagon or their S Brand. Seems MB is a bit scared to really compete in the Luxury Full Size SUV space.

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Also depending on where you measure from. Every Auto Maker seems to have a different point on where you measure from. 

Ford lists on their site "max."  FWIW

28 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Right, MB is too scared to actually build a real competitor. Rather focus on their 40+ year old screw mismatched G-Wagon or their S Brand. Seems MB is a bit scared to really compete in the Luxury Full Size SUV space.

In their defense, that seems like a smart move on teir part. They had the segment almost to their selves and still do when it comes to the AMG version. 

9 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Ford lists on their site "max."  FWIW

In their defense, that seems like a smart move on teir part. They had the segment almost to their selves and still do when it comes to the AMG version. 

Understand the Max word, but as far as consistent identical points of measuring from, this is all over the map.

I agree that Cadillac needs a Sport and  V edition for the Escalade, yet they already have the V that clearly goes toe to toe with the AMG badge in the car side. Time to bring it on the CUV / SUV side.

Yet even then, they still do not fully compete against the Escalade line.

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Understand the Max word, but as far as consistent identical points of measuring from, this is all over the map.

I agree that Cadillac needs a Sport and  V edition for the Escalade, yet they already have the V that clearly goes toe to toe with the AMG badge in the car side. Time to bring it on the CUV / SUV side.

Yet even then, they still do not fully compete against the Escalade line.

Sorry I meant that the Benz sized GLS somewhat had the segment to themselves. They have no reason to enter into the larger Escalade's segment. 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Sorry I meant that the Benz sized GLS somewhat had the segment to themselves. They have no reason to enter into the larger Escalade's segment. 

The LWB Escalade and other Suburban-sized SUVs are pretty much a US novelty...since MB competes in world markets, I can't imagine the need for them to compete in that niche.   Though I suspect the rumored NG GLS-based Maybach SUV will be offered in a longer wheelbase version than the GLS..

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The GLS has outsold the Escalade before in the USA, it could take it back over with a new model or if the Navigator cuts into Escalade sales.  Escalade sales saw a spike when the the Navigator tanked a few years ago.  Globally the GLS outsells all these big luxury SUVs.

The key word in that is “before”. It hasn’t in years and doesn’t look to change that anytime soon. 

And I don’t care about global sales (especially since the Slade is not sold outside of the US) or your damn bar moving. You made a silly point about the GLS and space and I countered it with facts. 

1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

The LWB Escalade and other Suburban-sized SUVs are pretty much a US novelty...since MB competes in world markets, I can't imagine the need for them to compete in that niche.   Though I suspect the rumored NG GLS-based Maybach SUV will be offered in a longer wheelbase version than the GLS..

Right, the GL/GLS has outsold the Navigator every year in which the GL has been on sale in the USA.  And you are 100% right, Mercedes designs cars for the whole world not just the USA, globally the GLS outsells Navigator and Escalade combined.

And there is a new GLS next year, the Maybach version will blow these other guys away, ditto for the 600 hp AMG.

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Sorry I meant that the Benz sized GLS somewhat had the segment to themselves. They have no reason to enter into the larger Escalade's segment. 

The GLS and Escalade are with in 2 inches in every dimension of each other and the 2013 Escalade was actually shorter than the GLS, they made the Escalade bigger for the current generation. These two since 2006 have been very close in size.

46 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The key word in that is “before”. It hasn’t in years and doesn’t look to change that anytime soon. 

 

And I don’t care about global sales (especially since the Slade is not sold outside of the US) or your damn bar moving. You made a silly point about the GLS and space and I countered it with facts. 

I posted the dimensions and the GLS has more head and leg room in all 3 rows except Escalade wins front leg room, GLS wins the other 5. 

Also funny that the GM fans say the CT6 is on par with an S-class even though the S-class is larger and has more room. Talk about bar moving.

Statistics often lie.  Go by the numbers all you want, but sitting in an Escalade feels roomier than a GLS.  They feel like completely different size classes. 

37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Statistics often lie.  Go by the numbers all you want, but sitting in an Escalade feels roomier than a GLS.  They feel like completely different size classes. 

That may be but the GLS is also a unibody compared to a body on frame so maybe that is why the feel is different.  GLS’s dimensions inside and out are very close to Navigator, Escalade, LX570, QX80, etc.  

And as stated before, Mercedes has to sell the GLS in Europe and China so they have to factor that into the size and engine choices too.   Plus more size doesn’t equal better.  That is like arguing the Town Car is better than a CT6 because it is larger.

Issue is the GLS is only mid-size in width.

GLS shoulder room, frt/rr : 58.5" / 58"
Escalade shoulder room, frt/rr : 65" / 64"

That's a whole different size class right there, so of course it's going to feel tighter in the GLS.

46 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That may be but the GLS is also a unibody compared to a body on frame so maybe that is why the feel is different.  GLS’s dimensions inside and out are very close to Navigator, Escalade, LX570, QX80, etc.  

And as stated before, Mercedes has to sell the GLS in Europe and China so they have to factor that into the size and engine choices too.   Plus more size doesn’t equal better.  That is like arguing the Town Car is better than a CT6 because it is larger.

I didn't argue that bigger is better, just that the Escalade feels roomier. The Escalade may feel too big to some buyers, and that's okay. I prefer the size and roominess of the Escalade myself, and that's also okay. The Escalade drives fantastic and so does the GLS, they're a wash to me. 

I'm this class, I'd pick the Escalade, but that's only because I haven't driven the Navigator yet.

The Express/Savana seems even wider inside than the Escalade and it's siblings.  Got to drive a Savana today..so strange to encounter a column shift and no center console in a contemporary vehicle...

Edited November 11, 20178 yr by Cubical-aka-Moltar

51 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Got to drive a Savana today..so strange to encounter a column shift and no center console in a contemporary vehicle...

No doubt that was a refreshing experience!
I took a short spin in this today, also column shift/ bench w/ pull-down armrest. Comfy- and also more width than a MB GLS inside :