Marchionne Still Dreams of A FCA-GM Merger

12 minutes ago, Stew said:

It is completely comparable because The Sting Ray was a brand new car on a brand new platform, which a brand new powertrain.  Like the Alfa it is also not a high production car.  looking at modern times, it is COMPLETELY comparable.  And FYI:  heat soak issues ere with the Z06.  The engine failures were regular LT1 powered Sting Rays.  Of course last i checked, the Corvette isn't exactly known for being highly reliable.  Cheaply built, with economy car interiors SURE, but that at least changed with the C7, though cost cutting is still noticeable........ 

Keep trying to compare that until the cows come home but the problem with Fiat and Alfa is not just their powertrains and platforms (old or new) but their manufacturing and assembly in general and this is well known to anyone with a computer. They have had problems and Europe for decades and they are bringing those problems over here. 

5 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Keep trying to compare that until the cows come home but the problem with Fiat and Alfa is not just their powertrains and platforms (old or new) but their manufacturing and assembly in general and this is well known to anyone with a computer. They have had problems and Europe for decades and they are bringing those problems over here. 

I can't remember but the Alfa plant is either all new or completely redone and revamped for these new cars, so again, using the past is really pointless.

The fact is you have no idea what it's reliability will be, neither do I or anyone else PERIOD.  That is the only point I am trying to make.  Continuing to quote the past is kind of like mental masturbation trying to get off your point through fake screams and manic groaning. 

3 minutes ago, Stew said:

I can't remember but the Alfa plant is either all new or completely redone and revamped for these new cars, so again, using the past is really pointless.

 

The fact is you have no idea what it's reliability will be, neither do I or anyone else PERIOD.  That is the only point I am trying to make.  Continuing to quote the past is kind of like mental masturbation trying to get off your point through fake screams and manic groaning. 

Except it's not. They are using the same assembly and manufacturing they have used for years, which has always been the core problem with their quality or lack thereof. Sorry but history absolutely comes into play here and Fiat and Alfa have to prove that their history of junk is just that, history. Until then, they are junk.

12 minutes ago, Stew said:

C&D had 2.  The one they had for best driver's car also blew up and GM admitted a production issue. 

Do you have a link to the second one? Their long-termer is the only engine I can find that went "BOOM".

13 minutes ago, Stew said:

Shoot yourself in the foot.  There are no official recalls on the Giullia yet either.......   Yet, you assume problems?

You're right. But they've always been unreliable why give me 5 reasons why anybody with a right mind would consider them to be reliable and give them a shot this time? It isn't like Alfas and Fiats have just had small blips of unreliability. They've been unreliable for the past 50 years and the current crop of FCA vehicles shows no sign of changing that.

We'll use the current then. FCA's locked down the bottom 4 spots and something like 5 of the last 7 spots on CR's. Are they(CR) perfect? Hell no. But they have some weight in what they say.

So again, what about that is making the consumer believe something else from them will be more reliable(when they've had a track record for themselves of being terribly unreliable)?

25 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Except it's not. They are using the same assembly and manufacturing they have used for years, which has always been the core problem with their quality or lack thereof. Sorry but history absolutely comes into play here and Fiat and Alfa have to prove that their history of junk is just that, history. Until then, they are junk.

This a totally different product than anything they have done before.  The platform, engine, manufacturing, etc have to be ready for higher volume models. 

The Cassino plant has identified with the Alfa Romeo brand since 2015. Modernisation works were started and completed in time for the first introduction phase of the Giulia in 2016.

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23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Do you have a link to the second one? Their long-termer is the only engine I can find that went "BOOM".

 

You're right. But they've always been unreliable why give me 5 reasons why anybody with a right mind would consider them to be reliable and give them a shot this time? It isn't like Alfas and Fiats have just had small blips of unreliability. They've been unreliable for the past 50 years and the current crop of FCA vehicles shows no sign of changing that.

We'll use the current then. FCA's locked down the bottom 4 spots and something like 5 of the last 7 spots on CR's. Are they(CR) perfect? Hell no. But they have some weight in what they say.

So again, what about that is making the consumer believe something else from them will be more reliable(when they've had a track record for themselves of being terribly unreliable)?

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Power is always available, and the car’s tall gearing is suited to VIR. The entertainment level was reaching tsunami height just when the Corvette suddenly died coming onto the front straight. Chevy suspects contaminated oil caused the engine failure that killed the car; it was no more, expired, a 0-hp Corvette. We were content with our lap time, but if Chevy wants to bring back a live one for another go, we wouldn’t say no.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/chevrolet-corvette-stingray-at-lightning-lap-2014-feature

Edited March 13, 20178 yr by Stew

1 minute ago, Stew said:

This a totally different product than anything they have done before.  The platform, engine, manufacturing, etc have to be ready for higher volume models. 

 

 

 

 

 

Using the same people, same corporate structure, and same assembly and manufacturing they have used on every car. It Giulia will not be unique to this. That is my point. 

19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Using the same people, same corporate structure, and same assembly and manufacturing they have used on every car. It Giulia will not be unique to this. That is my point. 

Um no, the plant is updat3ed to modern standards and equipment and this will be the first new Alfa to come out of this plant........

5 minutes ago, Stew said:

Um no, the plant is updat3ed to modern standards and equipment and this will be the first new Alfa to come out of this plant........

Sorry but I'm still not convinced. They have updated plants for years prior to this and still have the same unreliable cars coming out of there. Sorry but again, the burden of proof that they won't be the same piles they have always been is on them. When that car has been out a year or two with no major issues, then we can talk. Until then, I stand by my view of them. 

Edited March 13, 20178 yr by surreal1272

Just now, surreal1272 said:

Sorry but I'm still not convinced. They have updated plants for years prior to this and still have the same unreliable cars coming out of there. Sorry but again, the burden of proof that they won't be the same piles they have always been is on them. When that car has been out a year or two with no major issues, then we can talk. Until the , I stand by my view of them. 

You do that and we will see what happens. 

22 minutes ago, Stew said:

You do that and we will see what happens. 

I absolutely will. 

Looking at the high volume current gen Gulietta, it seems pretty decent in the build quality and reliability stuff (looked at a number of sites and reviews).  biggest issue is a start/stop system that doesn't work if the battery charge is too low. 

And until then... Watch Alfa sales blow the roof off their competition... *cough cough*

2 hours ago, Stew said:

I can't remember but the Alfa plant is either all new or completely redone and revamped for these new cars, so again, using the past is really pointless.

 

The fact is you have no idea what it's reliability will be, neither do I or anyone else PERIOD.  That is the only point I am trying to make.  Continuing to quote the past is kind of like mental masturbation trying to get off your point through fake screams and manic groaning. 

History is how you view all companies and all companies have had dark episodes in their history. For Fiat / Alfa, they have always been dark on reliability no matter the process in their plants, or the technology they try to use. The bigger issue is their unionized work force and the lack of desire to build quality products and put in an honest hard days work.

The US auto Unions were getting just as bad till bankruptcy hit and it forced them to change which the Union members did by kicking out the old way of thinking leadership and make many other changes including taking actual ownership  in GM as one example and they had to bring in better educated people to manage the money and lead the union and one of the changes was to work with GM rather than against it.

In Italy, the Unions are known to fight the companies and the history points to the bad attitude of the workers towards Fiat and Alfa. They demand jobs, benefits and plenty of time off and yet do not change even on new models to put in an honest days work with a focus on quality. 

The reviews of the Guiliana have already proven to be very buggy auto's and at this time the history leads one to expect this new product line to not be any better than other existing products.

Sadly there is nothing one can do to change history, you can only change the way you do the job and build up a reputation for quality over Time, something the American auto companies for the most part are doing versus Fiat / Alfa that has not done that.

Business as usual is what will lead to the Death of Fiat / Alfa in a global market. Yes they will sell to the uninformed, but to those that know their history, they will be shunned. 

46 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And until then... Watch Alfa sales blow the roof off their competition... *cough cough*

Hardly.  Giullia is going to be a much harder sell than the Stelvio.