Then the domestics thought they would capitalize on it and went hell bent for FWD.

And the japanese didn't??? toyota, mazda and datsun were primarily or completely RWD in '80, but primarily FWD 5 years later. Mitsu was already primarily FWD by '80. It was an industry-wide trend, esp in the affordable/ economy/ family classes. The propaganda was seldom if ever pitched from a roadability standpoint- the consumer conception was one of economical superiority due to the economy models being so rapidly switched over to (or already being) FWD. Being the gas crisi was still so fresh in consumer's minds, FWD -by erroneous association- gained a deep foothold in the market. Naturally, what works by perception for econoboxes has a strong chance of adding to the bottom line in larger vehicles in many instances.

Edited October 3, 200619 yr by balthazar

Is that what the rest of your friends tell you on Temple of VTEC?

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My parents lived in Minnesota and Iowa for decades, RWD in the snow back in the 70s-80s was a nightmare for them. Now, he sticks with FWD even though we live in TX he still prefers it whenever it does freeze over. I've seen a lot of SUVs and cars spin out when it gets icy down here because people don't adjust their driving habits. Heck a Tahoe almost crashed into me by sliding and jumping the median, I was sitting in the left lane and had the great fortune of seeing that gold bowtie right next to my driver's side window.

We used to have a 79' Olds Omega which during the TX winter, couldn't make it up any sort of incline no matter what the grade thanks to its beefyness and RWD. FWD is better for idiot drivers, and even then I'd take my FWD over RWD in icy conditions. Now if I want my performance, I'll take it in RWD or AWD flavor.

Most relatively recent drivers never learned how to drive RWD in slippery conditions, thusly they need the 'hand holding/coddling' that FWD provides (to an extent). I've driven RWD my whole life (thousands upon thousands of miles in FWD too, tho I never owned any) and never had any problems beyond one notoriously light-in-the-rear RWD vehicle.

exactly, only dumbasses and honda turd knockers think Fwd is "better for rain"

they should not be driving anything

With ESP and balanced weight distribution, no one needs FWD.

tell the dickless HONDA fans that

I'm in a Honda/GM family. Guess I must be a dickless turd knocker right? Try being a little less bias and more mature. Maybe you'll gain some respect around here. Stupid name calling like "Honduh" doesn't make or prove a point, at least try to make a decent statement. I like coming to C&G because its a big melting pot for car discussions, at least try to contribute?

Cimastain, take a time out on the cursing and check the abrasive attitude at the door.

Thank you.

I'm in a Honda/GM family. Guess I must be a dickless turd knocker right? Try being a little less bias and more mature. Maybe you'll gain some respect around here. Stupid name calling like "Honduh" doesn't make or prove a point, at least try to make a decent statement. I like coming to C&G because its a big melting pot for car discussions, at least try to contribute?

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sorry about that one, bit too much sugar with my coffee and cream

Edited October 3, 200619 yr by cimastain

Wow... looks like we have a new troll. Oh super.

In the rain I'm not sure FWD is any better than RWD, but I can tell you from experience, FWD is 10 times better in the snow than RWD...and AWD is just godly.

In the rain I'm not sure FWD is any better than RWD, but I can tell you from experience, FWD is 10 times better in the snow than RWD...and AWD is just godly.

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^^^^^

With ESP and balanced weight distribution, no one needs FWD.

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but fwd or awd is still better than that in inclement weather anyways, so what's your point? ESP still is no savior if your ESP is kicking in just to get your car moving on an icy incline when the FWD and AWD cars are moving off a dead stop without spinning a wheel. Or when ESP is kicking in to keep your tail happy RWD car in line and the FWD or AWD car is tracking straight and true with no fuss.

my God so many so called enthusiasts are in fricking denial.

front wheel drive is better than rear wheel drive for most drivers who have to deal with inclement weather on a regular basis. AWD is even better yet. I've lived and driven in HELLISH ND blizzards that all the folks who think they've seen snow would make them stay in the fricking house for 4 days. I've had at least 8 or 9 RWD only cars I've driven in my lifetime in rural and city environments in winters. I've driven them carelessly and properly. I got my first FWD car (89 SHO) and it was a MONSTER in the snow and I've never looked back.

END OF DISCUSSION. especially if CA folks are trying to chime in. we aren't driving these things in sand. Please stick to making unreasonable emissions laws which drive up car costs for everyone else in the country.

People vote with their dollars. If folks didn't like the FWD better for slippery weather, they wouldn't have sold and we'd been seeing RWD cars come back 15 years ago.

need i tell the story of why i got my thunderbird so cheap back in 95?

"we can't sell rear wheel drive cars in the winter"...explains how i get a RWD t bird for 5 grand cheaper with only 4 thou miles on it than an equivalent front drive car.

I still bet the Dodge dealer by my house has a handful of the NEW Magnums left on his lot from when I was first shopping nearly two years ago. Unless they finally had to ship them to fleet.

Or the excoworker, whose boyfriend did 3x360 after crossing the median on interstate towards oncoming traffic with their RWD mustang on slick icy roads because the car fishtailed violently at speeds lower than the rest of the FWD traffic was moving.

Some of those ND blizzards, the only thing that will get you through the interstates without nail biting during bad blizzards are vehicles with true 4wd systems and lots of weight, Tahoes, Suburbans, big ass pickups, expeditions, etc.

Edited October 3, 200619 yr by regfootball

Is that what the rest of your friends tell you on Temple of VTEC?

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Funny cause I frequent this forum a lot more than TOV, which I got to mainly for the news. :AH-HA_wink:

Lancia Beta (Fiat) people try to claim credit for the transverse mounted engine, transaxle, McPearson strut type setup that became so common place, not sure how accurate it is, but the Italians did have a huge influence in Japan with their small cars. OHC, DOHC, FWD ect. Lancia Betas were not common place here in the US so had little impact unless there is truth about their influence on Japan.

Thanks for the props.

Don't forget the influence of the English and French. Citroen had mainstream FWD models decades before Lancia. And the Mini made the transverse engine/front-drive package appealing to buyers and manufacturers in 1959. Even in the US, the Mini was the top selling FWD model until the arrival of the Toronado in 1966.

I don't have figures handy and I cannot seem to find them online anywhere. VW's Rabbit/Golf has handily outsold the Beetle...

In the US, the best year of the Beetle far surpassed the best year for the Rabbit/Golf. But I'm sure over the vehicle's 30+ years, the Golf has racked up big numbers (24 million according to Wikipedia as of 2005).

If anything the Japanese can be blamed for sucking the life out of car interiors by making only gray, tan and black available, decontenting the trim off the sides of vehicles and by hideous or plain/dull boring styling.

My two cents: it is about the TIRES.

I don't care if you have EIGHT WHEEL DRIVE and are a professional skid course driver - you're going nowhere in sh**ty tires!

I live in the barren, snow-driven tundra, aka Canada. I had a '91 Caprice wagon and without snow tires it was pretty bad. With snow tires it was great. (Locking differential really helps, too!)

My '87 Shadow was useless with the 50 series tires it came with! FWD or not, it couldn't even get out of my driveway on snowy mornings. I had to have my neighbors help push me out! M&S tires made a huge difference.

I am currently living in Toronto and we just don't get snow any more, and with an army of salt trucks it also doesn't matter.

My '98 Blazer 4WD got stuck in the worst snow we have had in years becaue of the crappy "all-season" tires.

And I do agree, for the AVERAGE person, FWD is better. It can get them out of situations that they probably shouldn't have been in the first place, but then they barely passed their driver's test anyway.

If anything the Japanese can be blamed for sucking the life out of car interiors by making only gray, tan and black available, decontenting the trim off the sides of vehicles and by hideous or plain/dull boring styling.

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THAT, we can give them credit for.

If anything the Japanese can be blamed for sucking the life out of car interiors by making only gray, tan and black available

As opposed to what, blue, pink, and green?

I doubt the Japanese can be blamed for lack of interior color. Fickle consumer tastes, the internet and cost cutting have more to do with it, I am sure.

For example: the Equinox comes in 4 basic packages, AWD or FWD, 9 exterior colors and 2 interior colors. By my math, that is 4X2X9X2 = 144 possible ways to build the Equinox. Do you want a sun roof with that? How about OnStar?

Get my point? In 1969, it was easy for Chrysler, for example to offer gold, green, black and other interior colors because they had a lot fewer choices on the options list.

Today, no dealer could stock every color/options possibilities and customers won't wait. If they get it in their mind that they want a blue interior with a gold exterior (because the internet shows them that combo!) that is what they want. NOW.

In my father's time, you took what was on the lot or you factory ordered and waited.

There are a lot of other things I would blame Japan for, but not this one.

CARBIZ: however, don't forget that back in the '60s, for example, all options were available individually (plus different engine/axle/trans options, etc)- making the possible combinations likely much larger than today. I believe I once read that Cadillac by the late '60s could nearly build their entire annual production run without repeating the exact same car, factoring in colors, options & models. This would be in the neighborhood of 225,000 units.

Pontiac, early '60s: regular fuel 2bbl, hi-comp 2bbl, 4bbl, 3x2bbl, 2x4bbl, 389 CI, 421 CI, 3-spd manual, HD 3-spd manual, 4-spd manual, 3- & 4-spd automatics, 2.56, 2.69, 2.87, 3.08, 3.23, 3.42, 3.64, 3.90, 4.10 gears, standard brakes, HD brakes, aluminum finned brakes....

Today, there are no optional axle ratios or brakes and only a very few optional engines or transmissions, unless you're in the higher-end sports car class (for the most part).