Latest issue compares the super sedans and the pecking order is:

5. Dogsus LS 460L

4. Jaguar Super V-8

3. BMW 750 Li

2. Audi A8l Quattro

1. MB S550

5. Dogsus

For a car that some of us thought might win, fifth place seems astonishing. But you have to blame Lexus's obsessive isolation from noise and vibration for this outcome.

Persuading Lexus to negotiate our famous lane change test was akin to driving a coach.

..... sound levels are low enough inside that imperfect door seals on our preproduction vehicle produced wind noise that seemed hurricane like in comparison.

What??? Lexus has quality glitches?

Toy-boy-ta is going to recall Lexus, :AH-HA_wink:

Talk about the 8-speed and 380-hp V-8. It was slower in all accelerations apart from the Audi. Stopped 207 feet from 70-0. I think Silverado is better than that. It had the least road holding of the group.

The last time when they compared Lexus was first and Benz the last. Well now it has just been reversed. C and D atleast did something right.

Based on what I've seen, read, and experienced so far... my scoring would be identical.

I would flip the XJ Super V8 and the 750Li. If nothing else, the Super V8 is many times sexier than the stodgy 7-Series. And I probably would flip the A8 and S550. The S might have the performance edge, but the Audi destroys the S's interior (stylewise, at least) and looks better from more angles.

Edited December 1, 200619 yr by DetroitNut90

The rankings are about right... except I'd switch the BMW with the Audi. Hell, maybe have the Jag in front of the Audi.

I like Audis, but the regular A8 is too German. The Super V8 may technically be inferior, but at least it has character and power.

So what was this a couple members were telling us about the LS being so much better than the S-Class that it's not even funny? Yeah, I think not. I might actually choose the A8 over the S-Class for no other reason than I like its looks better inside and out, but obviously its performance is lacking in comparison to the others.

I'd choose the Audi over any of them.

It's not gaudy like the other Germans, and it's just one damn sexy automobile. Plus, quattro and the finest interiors in the business? Oh yeah.

Yeah, I'd take the Audi or the Jag over the rest.

I wouldn't take any. I don't like German or Japanese cars.

Where's the STS-V?

I'm not sure if it is a true super sedan, or if it directly competes with this segment, but I would have liked to see how it'd stack up.

Oh well.

Honestly, if you add the STS-V to this group it would come up 7th out of 6, and not just because of some phantom media bias, but because the STS-V isn't even close to being a real player.

Also I would like to add that the new S class makes me want to have all sorts of silly orgasms.

Edited December 1, 200619 yr by Satty

Also I would like to add that the new S class makes me want to have all sorts of silly orgasms.

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I hope I'm interpreting that comment correctly, because I agree.

I believe the S-Class just stands alone in this category. It's flat out beautiful. I admit the Jag has more character than any of the others, but still, the S-Class is at the top of its game here.

You're totally interpreting correctly. I was iffy with just seeing pics, but that changed when I saw one in person. Amazing, beautiful, damn near perfect. The Jag and Audi do have some very good qualities while the Lexus and BMW have some major faults in my eyes. You cant go wrong with the MB, Jag or Audi, but the S stands above all. Lord of the Automotive Universe.

My soft spot is for the Jag here. Mostly because its unique and non sterile and aluminum. Its so light. I suppose the A8 is aluminum too but is a bit more overkill. I like the A8 also.

The mercedes is beautiful too, but is kinda too common.

the BMW 7 series is one of the ugliest cars out there now.

the Dogsus is a poseur in spite of its technical tour de force.

Edited December 1, 200619 yr by regfootball

I wouldn't take any.  I don't like German or Japanese cars.

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That still leaves te Ford-owned, British-built Jag.

.... sound levels are low enough inside that imperfect door seals on our preproduction vehicle produced wind noise that seemed hurricane like in comparison.

so they were testing a preproduction lexus against what i can only assume were production models fo the rest? sounds like a fair test.

and there were a couple of glitches in the pre-prod car? I'm shocked, really

It was a good article..unusual to see Toyota/Lexus end up in last place. Of these, I'd probably go for the Merc or Audi..the Audi has my favorite interior, and the exterior of the Audi and Merc are my favorites (though the Jag looks sweet also). I don't care for the BMW's Bangled styling or moronic iDrive.

I'd prefer the SWB versions of them, though.. if it were a comparison of SWB full-sizers, I'd want to see the goregous Quattroporte included.

Any of these would make for my ultimate commuter car..

Edited December 1, 200619 yr by moltar

I definitely think no matter how much money you spend on a luxury car it still should be fun to drive not a commodity.

Judging from Clarkson and the way he liked the S-Class and now C and D it does make sense to accept Dogsus got all wrong. To learn how to create a dispassionate car learn from Toyota. They have been doing it for 25 years atleast here in States.

Even the European car magazines snubbed the Dog, which means a lot.

That is the drawback of reverse engineering which Toyota had been faithfully following. Copying the Germans and trying to make one better seemed to have worked initially but now they seem to have lost it and to a point whoring it.

Frankly I never can associate "Sports" with Toy-boy-ta (even though they claim they have a racing division ). The good way to judge is how they have not won A SIGNLE F-1 GP during their seven years of racing and even having one of the highest budget in the history of the sports. They even tried to spy and steal Ferrari's Aerodynamics design.

I think only time will show how Toyota is gonna go downhill.

1) Read Dragon's post.

2) Reread Dagon's post.

3) C&D humps Germans so there's no surprise here.

4) If you guys want to gain some respect and actually seem like car enthusiasts you'd pronounce and spell certain car manufactures' names correctly.

5) Let us remember GM does not play in this segment.

1) Read Dragon's post.

2) Reread Dagon's post.

3) C&D humps Germans so there's no surprise here.

4) If you guys want to gain some respect and actually seem like car enthusiasts you'd pronounce and spell certain car manufactures' names correctly.

5) Let us remember GM does not play in this segment.

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If C&D humped Germans:

Mazda MX5, Mazdaspeed3, Honda Accord would not have made it in their list of 10 best.

Let us remember this too, this post was not about GM it was about how Lexus Failed.

If C&D humped Germans:

Mazda MX5, Mazdaspeed3, Honda Accord would not have made it in their list of 10 best.

Let us remember this too, this post was not about GM it was about how Lexus Failed.

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I would argue that the Lexus didn't fail, rather, it didn't possess the qualities that C&D looks for in large, sporty sedans. Toyota hasn't cracked the sportscar DNA with any of the Lexus products.

That being said, Lexus will still sell every one they import.

Personally, I'd wait 3 years, let the Jag depreciate to the $30's and snap one up while it still had factory warranty coverage. Otherwise, these are all overweight, blingmobiles that I wouldn't be caught dead in.

*Obvious thought of the day*

Cadillac ought to build a car that competes in this price & size category.

The way I viewed the article is that Lexus didn't fail..coming in last in the big leagues isn't failure, more a difference of focus. The Lexus is more focused on luxury and passenger comfort, isolation, than driver involvement...more like a traditional American luxury sedan than a European one. The European cars in the test are more serious about having sports sedan qualities (driver focus, handing, road feel, etc) mixed in with the luxury.

nov 06

LS460 - 3,613

MB Sclass - 2,780

nov 06

LS460 -  3,613

MB Sclass - 2,780

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Case in point: Lexus doesn't even need C&D to boost sales.

Case in point: Lexus doesn't even need C&D to boost sales.

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Consumer Reports no doubt helps, what with Lexus' reliability/quality reputation golden and M-B's fecal brown these days...

Previous LS generations have been the highest or one of the highest rated cars for reliability by numerous organizations. I highly doubt Toyota will screw it up now.

I'm not surprised that the Lexus came in last because it's an isolation booth geared towards comfort, not energetic driving. In my very brief drive of it at Taste of Lexus, I found it very soft. I haven't driven any of the rest except for the 750iL, where I have had some real world experience in it. It feels very heavy, but it's also very capable. If I were to buy any of these vehicles, it would be the Lexus because of reliability.

The Lexus came in last but Caddy would give his left nut for a equivlent to the LS.

At this point Caddy is not a player in this game and it seems it will be years before Caddy will be really ready for the Big Bois!!

I actually like the styling of the LS...but it doesn't hold a candle to the Jag or the Audi

Lesux will never be a Mercedes. Sorry. Just never going to happen. Ever. They might be reliable. Whoopy Hoo. Id still rather be picked up on the side of the road in a Benz...a really nice benz like the - does it matter- than a Lexus.

seriously. but maybe thats just me.

A Jag too would be nice.

I checked all of them at LAIAS. My impressions...

LS460L - The attention to detail is staggering. Everything feels well-made and thoroughly thought out. It's luxury in a very soft, tactile, and soothing manner. There's nothing bold or controversial about it, and as a result, it has absolutely no character. It's a rational buy, not an emotional one, for people with perfect skin, perfect white teeth, and perfect families.

Jaguar XJR - There's an understated and classic elegance to this car. Compared to its big and chunky competitors, the XJ looks slim and felile. The interior could use better plastics, but because of the burled wood, contrasting piping, and piano black finish, it feels very comforting, cosseting, and traditional. I love it, but I wouldn't buy one new.

BMW 750Li - The big Bimmer isn't conservative or graceful. But it has one of my favorite interiors, and overall, it's a very well-rounded package. It's definitely the most sport and art-oriented in its class. You either love it or hate it, and that's a good thing.

Audi A8 - I generally find non-S/RS Audis boring, and this is no exception. I don't understand why anyone would buy one over a BMW, Mercedes, or even Lexus. It's just a big, expensive, characterless German sedan without exceptional performance, luxury, design, or refinement.

S550 - The S-class is dignified and business-like. There's a feeling of importance to it... something monumental. Even though it's similar to the Lexus in many ways, their two characters are fundamentally different. Everything about the LS is soft, precise, and deceptive, whereas the S-class is about being substantial and over-engineered. It's the original, an institution, the big luxury sedan to get.

Edited December 2, 200619 yr by empowah

nov 06

LS460 -  3,613

MB Sclass - 2,780

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And how about the average transaction price? I'm guessing the S-Class was about $20k more per unit. Sales figures don't necessarily tell the story of how good a vehicle is. The Camry would not be the best-selling vehicle if sales were based upon what vehicle is the best.

I checked all of them at LAIAS. My impressions...

LS460L - The attention to detail is staggering. Everything feels well-made and thoroughly thought out. It's luxury in a very soft, tactile, and soothing manner. There's nothing bold or controversial about it, and as a result, it has absolutely no character. It's a rational buy, not an emotional one, for people with perfect skin, perfect white teeth, and perfect families.

Jaguar XJR - There's an understated and classic elegance to this car. Compared to its big and chunky competitors, the XJ looks slim and felile. The interior could use better plastics, but because of the burled wood, contrasting piping, and piano black finish, it feels very comforting, cosseting, and traditional. I love it, but I wouldn't buy one new.

BMW 750Li - The big Bimmer isn't conservative or graceful. But it has one of my favorite interiors, and overall, it's a very well-rounded package. It's definitely the most sport and art-oriented in its class. You either love it or hate it, and that's a good thing.

Audi A8 - I generally find non-S/RS Audis boring, and this is no exception. I don't understand why anyone would buy one over a BMW, Mercedes, or even Lexus. It's just a big, expensive, characterless German sedan without exceptional performance, luxury, design, or refinement.

S550 - The S-class is dignified and business-like. There's a feeling of importance to it... something monumental. Even though it's similar to the Lexus in many ways, their  two characters are fundamentally different. Everything about the LS is soft, precise, and deceptive, whereas the S-class is about being substantial and over-engineered. It's the original, an institution, the big luxury sedan to get.

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I was right with you until the Audi and MB. I'm the complete opposite on those two cars. The A8 is easily the most understated luxury sedan, and thats a good thing. The interior is pure luxury while still being about the driver unlike the LS and S class, which are awesome... if you're a passenger. The A8 has the typical German feel to it, without being over the top like the 7 series and S class. To me, its the perfect big luxury sedan. Behind it, the Jaguar XJR with its beautiful styling, inside and out. The others... I wouldnt bother with.

I don't care if the Lexus is more reliable than the Mercedes-Benz. Even if the S-class isn't at all beautiful what with its gigantic Ford Focus-like fender bulges and bulge-butt, it's still the more emotional package, with what, around a century of engineering experience behind them?

Lexus is only a wish, a dream of Toyota. Sure, they may be reliable, handsome, and high quality luxury, it seems only like a response of "I want to be there and do that too, but I can't because of my badge" or "I want more money and power!!"

But I would still pick the Audi. All weather conquering, subtle (aside from big mouth up front), luxurious, and modern. Audi would really have to screw up the next A8/A8 L to make make it unappealing. Audi has really seemed to transform itself in the last ten years. They managed to further separate themselves from VW Group (until Piech screwed that up with the Phaeton) and turn themselves into a purveyor of fine, beautiful, modern, and sublte luxury sport sedans.

Audi can only be seen to improve.

And how about the average transaction price? I'm guessing the S-Class was about $20k more per unit. Sales figures don't necessarily tell the story of how good a vehicle is. The Camry would not be the best-selling vehicle if sales were based upon what vehicle is the best.

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It's of little relevance, Toyota's profit margins last quarter were over 9%. That's

higher than Mercedes.

I'd have to go with the Jag. Its got class the other simply don't have, a pillar of emotional design and true passion in an era of bland German purposefulness and boring Japanese efficiency.

It's of little relevance, Toyota's profit margins last quarter were over 9%.  That's

higher than Mercedes.

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Not on the S-class...at least 15%. They lost their shirts on the Smarts and the a/b class vehicles. Much like some other companies we know and love, DCX has made money only because of the big machinery they sell.

I'd take the Jag in 3 years...40k for that bad boy would be sweet. Jags hold about 38% (IIRC) of their value over the first 3yrs. Residuals are in AutomotiveNews this week.

Audi's fall into the same category. Just be sure you have some faactory warranty left and a friend at the service dept. no matter which one of the tested vehicles is purchased 2nd hand.

Edited December 2, 200619 yr by enzl

I'd take the Jag in 3 years...40k for that bad boy would be sweet. Jags hold about 38% (IIRC) of their value over the first 3yrs. Residuals are in AutomotiveNews this week.

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The Jag C&D tested was the XJR and it starts for $81,500. I really doubt the Jag holds a measly 38% of its value in 3yrs, maybe five years and I doubt it is even that low.

The Jag C&D tested was the XJR and it starts for $81,500.  I really doubt the Jag holds a measly 38% of its value in 3yrs, maybe five years and I doubt it is even that low.

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That's from the lease guide...average across Jag lineup.

I know we pick up 1 year old jags at auction for more than one-third off MSRP...not too much to imagine a 3 yr. residual being that low...