Here's how I see it... I can understand completely what Balthy & O.B. are saying.

NO question about it, this is a very "safe" design that does no break much new

ground for Pontiac, dare I say ANY. In a perfect world the G8 would look a much

more bold and unique, more retro & quite frankly less like a Japanese car.

Also it would wear an emblem off of one of the legendary Pontiac cars that have

become household names. Bonneville, Grand Prix... even Catalina.

BUT, that having been said, this car has some very clean lines. It may not be the

most exciting design out there but there's also nothing UGLY or BLAND about it.

A horrible lack of style/balance/continuityevident is not evident as it is with 99%

of Toyotas, Hondas, Mitshubishis & Fords these days.

Plus this thing has SO much going for it that I can overlook styling imperfection

without batting an eyelash. I mean seriously, anyone care to remember the last

time that Pontiac had a mianstream sedan w/ RWD, a kick-a$$ pushrod V8, IRS,

manual transmision and a world class chassis?

This is a MAJOR step in the right direction, and yes with the innevidable refresh

or worst case scenario with the full redesign we will see a car with the persona

& unique character of a 1973 Trans Am SD455 or a 1969 GTO Judge.

I love all the sketches & concept drawings in the past few pages of this thread.

Whoever said that you can ask 10 people what they think a Pontiac looks like and get 10 different responses is dead on. Pontiacs have filled many a niche throughout the brand's existence: boring, basic transportation, simple understated sleeper performance cars, outrageously flashy muscle cars, cushy personal luxury cars, whatever you call the 80s to now. The G8 and the Solstice represent yet another rebirth at Pontiac. The brand has been givien a clean slate because it is time to start over. The possible reason for people feeling that it doesn't capture the essence of past Pontiacs is that it is not supposed to. If it helps, judge the car on its own merits instead of how it stacks up to the Pontiacs from your favorite era. Here we have a roomy sedan with taut, sexy proportions, a simple but athletic shape, an aggressive stance, two great motors, a quality interior, and (assuming Lutz gets his way, which he will) a very competitive price. Would you want a car with those qualities being sold as a Pontiac? I sure do.

Well said.

One thing is for sure: people either love the G8 as a Pontiac or hate it. There does not seem to be a middle ground. When was the last Pontiac sedan that divided people the way this car has?

Polarizing designs sell (see 1st gen CTS). The G8 will be fine.

I noticed that as well. Quite odd for a car some people are labeling as conservative...

Just a quickie sketch, but the brand ID is none other even tho it is thoroughly modern:

Looks like the Dodge + to me.

The new issue of Motor Trend has a really great rendering of the next Impala. I actually think the design they have would make a much better G8. The front end would need a redo but the rest of the body looks much more fitting for a Pontiac than a Chevy. I'd make the new Caprice the next Impala.

The Australian government is very happy Australia is now exporting this 100% Australian designed, engineered, and built sport sedan to the USA!

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Media...y/photoId=36677

More jobs for Australians! Keep up the awesome work! Be role models for your US counterparts!

Apparently things have been rough for Holden in Australia, and exporting has been how they have stayed alive, providing Australian job security.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...6-31037,00.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/holden-...222.html?page=2

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.c...jectid=10423038

The Australian government will fund Holden and other Australian manufacturers with A$7 billion dollars (US $5.4b) to continue their global push.

Holden is also contemplating exporting the Commodore Ute to the USA!

Yes, get ready for the El Camino to return.

The Australian government will fund Holden and other Australian manufacturers with A$7 billion dollars (US $5.4b) to continue their global push.

That sounds kind of Socialist to me, but it worked pretty well for the Japanese. Here in the US the politicians hide their payoffs to industries in the massive tax code so it isn't quite as apparent that they've been bought. Of course, the individual states compete with targeted tax incentives and infrastructure upgrades to entice large employers (which the existing employers get to pay for). And then there are the loan guarantees for foreign governments to buy American products. Ok, I'm cynical. Sue me.

Just a quickie sketch, but the brand ID is none other even tho it is thoroughly modern:

They're coming out with an original Camaro redo, might as well do the Firebird and GTO too.

I like it, with or without the scoops, but the pointy snout would never get past the lawyers.

I am looking forward to seeing the damn car in person. I hope I like it more than all the photos and videos I've seen up to now indicate. Of course, what's underneath the skin I have zero problem with.

One thing is for sure: people either love the G8 as a Pontiac or hate it. There does not seem to be a middle ground. When was the last Pontiac sedan that divided people the way this car has?

Polarizing designs sell (see 1st gen CTS). The G8 will be fine.

There is no love it or hate. You would either spend money on it or not given the choices on the market. That seems to be ths underlying disconnect on if your someone who likes this vehicle or not. Moving out of the realm of Fantasy Island and put real people with 30k to blow on a car, the market is too tough in the entry near entry luxury price point for yet another internationally style vehicle from a brand with a piss poor reputation and a lot of baggage for non GM or Pontiac fans to consider.

I for one - do not find the design compelling enough to put down my money for it. It is dull compared to the market and it sure is no CTS.

This G8? might be a good vehicle but for Pontiac though it will not move the needle for those that do not have Pontiac on their radar screen.

I have to suspect when this vehicle comes out, the V6 with leather will be pushing $30K as I guess becomes I am unsure of pricing.

For my money I would rather spend a little more and get the Cadillac or investigate the other options on the market.

This G8 is just not "cool" enough much less "cool'. Grafting on a 1985 Grand Am grill insert with some Aztek hood scoops onto a Holden just does not cut.

No one was bitching about developing "Saturn-specific" cues for the Opels, I don't see why GM cannot do this.

Saturn does not have 50 years of modern design heritage and Saturn does not have the baggage of Pontiac.

It's funny all the debate about the G8 when most people here haven't even seen it person (photos don't count) let alone drive it...

It's funny all the debate about the G8 when most people here haven't even seen it person (photos don't count) let alone drive it...

or afford one!

BUT, that having been said, this car has some very clean lines. It may not be the

most exciting design out there but there's also nothing UGLY or BLAND about it.

A horrible lack of style/balance/continuityevident is not evident as it is with 99%

of Toyotas, Hondas, Mitshubishis & Fords these days.

Plus this thing has SO much going for it that I can overlook styling imperfection

without batting an eyelash. I mean seriously, anyone care to remember the last

time that Pontiac had a mianstream sedan w/ RWD, a kick-a$$ pushrod V8, IRS,

manual transmision and a world class chassis?

Like, never? Pontiac's never had anything like this.. the '04-06 GTO was the closest... with few exceptions, Pontiac has had badly styled, forgettable, disposable FWD models for the past 25 years... the Solstice and this car represent a new, meaningful direction for the brand.

I had a chance to spend some time with G8 concept yesterday, at a private viewing. I've gotta say, I really like this car. It certainly makes me forget all about the GTO, (GTO who?). I haven't driven a Zeta yet, but I asked someone who has, if it's dynamics are comparable to my CTS, and they said they were.

Cost on this thing will be critical. If Pontiac can deliver a GT at or below the Charger R/T's pricing, they'll have somethng. Having a manual trans is a big draw for me personally. If they blow this, it won't be good.

Edited February 11, 200719 yr by Chazman

Everyone has their opinions, moltar- to me, remove 'FWD" and insert 'BMW' and you have mine.

There is no love it or hate. You would either spend money on it or not given the choices on the market. That seems to be ths underlying disconnect on if your someone who likes this vehicle or not. Moving out of the realm of Fantasy Island and put real people with 30k to blow on a car, the market is too tough in the entry near entry luxury price point for yet another internationally style vehicle from a brand with a piss poor reputation and a lot of baggage for non GM or Pontiac fans to consider.

I was referring to the reactions of the people here on this board, a couple others, and the press reviews in general, but it's not too much of a strech to say that these reactions are a microcosm of what will happen when the car hits showrooms. The recent past has taught us (well, me at least), that a car whose design elicits an emotional response of some sort will get attention, and eventually buyers. For example, you yourself have said that styling alone is selling the LX cars, with all due respect to the HEMI. For each of those cars, the styling represented a new design direction for the brand and people took notice. Some people loved it, flocked to a Dodge or Chrysler showroom, and drove home in one. Some, like me, hated it and eliminated the brands from their shopping lists. Same thing happened with the CTS. The same is happening with the G8. Pontiac has just introduced a car that represents its latest direction. You can't argue that there hasn't been an emotional response to it, regardless of the individual's preference. That, to me, is an indication that the car will be all right.

I for one - do not find the design compelling enough to put down my money for it. It is dull compared to the market and it sure is no CTS.

I can respect that. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder. Me - If I had 30K to spend on a new G8 or a new CTS, I'd go for the G8. Right now it is the top choice for my next new car. The only thing that would change that is confirmation that the Ute is coming.

This G8? might be a good vehicle but for Pontiac though it will not move the needle for those that do not have Pontiac on their radar screen.

I have to suspect when this vehicle comes out, the V6 with leather will be pushing $30K as I guess becomes I am unsure of pricing.

I'm no more able to predict the future than anyone else, but I'll go on record as saying you may be surprised at the number of conquest buyers. Everything depends on how GM prices and markets it.

For my money I would rather spend a little more and get the Cadillac or investigate the other options on the market.

This G8 is just not "cool" enough much less "cool'. Grafting on a 1985 Grand Am grill insert with some Aztek hood scoops onto a Holden just does not cut.

Again, diferent strokes for different folks. I know who's getting my money the next time around.

I'm no more able to predict the future than anyone else, but I'll go on record as saying you may be surprised at the number of conquest buyers. Everything depends on how GM prices and markets it.

Again, diferent strokes for different folks. I know who's getting my money the next time around.

The GTO has already shown - the formula does not work.

It's funny all the debate about the G8 when most people here haven't even seen it person (photos don't count) let alone drive it...

You can only talk about driving characteristics of a car only after driving one. However, you can absolutely form an opinion on a car's design after seeing pictures. Design is all about lines, form and shape which is what is captured in a photograph.

The GTO has already shown - the formula does not work.

Before you retaliate with pictures of the Catera, GTO, and Contour/Mondeo, I'll say I get your point. The point I'm making with this post is, rebadging a car from an international market can work, if the car is relevant in the target market and priced right. As I've said a couple of times before, lessons were learned from the GTO exercise, and the G8 proves that - notice the lack of a gas tank in the trunk, the choice of more than one engine, and what looks to be a much more extensive option list.

Saturn does not have 50 years of modern design heritage and Saturn does not have the baggage of Pontiac.

So...a Holden with a Pontiac grille and hood scoops is worse than abandoning the heritage of Chevrolets with tacked-on trim, Pontiac grilles and hood scoops? Pontiac has always been the least-defined of the GM brands...it never even fit into the Sloan hierarchy. Pontiac stands for "driving excitement" and its design cues have revolved around trying to look sporty, however that has been defined at the time of each car's design. The only consistent Pontiac cues have been the arrowhead and the split grille. Everything else has been here today, gone tomorrow. Since the G8 looks sporty, exciting and aggressive, it looks more like a Pontiac to me (driving excitement) than any ribbed, hood-scooped, ground effected Chevrolet with an Arrowhead logo. Pontiac has always competed with the Chevrolet SS...at least this is finally something without internal duplication.

Edited February 11, 200719 yr by Croc

The point I'm making with this post is, rebadging a car from an international market can work, if the car is relevant in the target market and priced right. As I've said a couple of times before, lessons were learned from the GTO exercise, and the G8 proves that - notice the lack of a gas tank in the trunk, the choice of more than one engine, and what looks to be a much more extensive option list.

Pontiac according to JD Power's study ranks at the bottom for customer retention, and is below overage on their APPEAL study. Therefore, no matter how good technically or optioned the G8 is, the brand is not on the public's radar. Beyond the GM enthusiast community, Pontiac is irrelevant.

Rebadging a relatively non descript Holden will not change that.

GM did not pursuade the public with the Catera and the GTO. The G8 is the same formula.

Already I have heard people refer to the G8 as the Pontiac Catera.

Oh and BTW - those vehicles you posted did not sell well in the US.

So...a Holden with a Pontiac grille and hood scoops is worse than abandoning the heritage of Chevrolets with tacked-on trim, Pontiac grilles and hood scoops?

Technically - Besides the 4-Door J car and SUVS/Vans - there have not been many badge-engineered Chevys/Pontiacs in the past 20 years.

Pontiac according to JD Power's study ranks at the bottom for customer retention, and is below overage on their APPEAL study. Therefore, no matter how good technically or optioned the G8 is, the brand is not on the public's radar. Beyond the GM enthusiast community, Pontiac is irrelevant.

Rebadging a relatively non descript Holden will not change that.

Nissan and Cadillac were both irrelevant by the turn of the century. There's no argument that both brands are in much better shape now. Why act as if Pontiac is any more of a lost cause than those two?

GM did not pursuade the public with the Catera and the GTO. The G8 is the same formula.

Already I have heard people refer to the G8 as the Pontiac Catera.

The Catera was, for all intents and purposes, a piece of garbage. Electrical demons were everywhere and engine reliability wasn't that great either. GM also engineeered all the European-ness out of the suspension, the one good quality that the Omega had. I don't see how anyone can mention Catera and G8 in the same sentence, except maybe this one: "Quite frankly, the Catera isn't fit to sit behind a running G8 and inhale its exhaust fumes." The GTO's styling was from an era that had passed quite a few years ago in this country, and was arguably its biggest handicap. The G8 is a much more contemporary design that as you can see has a lot of people talking. I have heard too many people walk away from the car impressed to believe that it is not "enough" of a design. According to Northstar, the G8 display was more crowded than the Camaro display was last year. That should say something.

Oh and BTW - those vehicles you posted did not sell well in the US.

Touche. (though I would like to see Focus year to year sales because I thought it did fairly well). All three of them, however, were loved by the media when they first came to the US. Anyway, IIRC both Lexus and Infiniti have used various foreign market Toyotas and Nissans for the US market in the past. Regardless of sales numbers, the vehicles did help to grow the brands' presence in the US.

Well, what everyone here hasn't mentioned about the G8 to be successful is retraining of Pontiac's dealership salesforce. The recent past is what I'm basing this on. First there was the GTO, with $5-$10K in markups OVER MSRP. Then there was the Solstice with $2,500 to $5K in markups over MSRP. The G8 will be in limited supply, so do you really think that the Pontiac dealers won't put a markup on them? That right there will screw with the success of the G8 and ultimately hurt Pontiac's future.

And while I did pay MSRP for my SKY, I have never paid MSRP or over for any of my other nine new GM vehicles bought/leased to date. And if I was in the market for a G8, I would not make an exception either (the SKY is my toy and is driven as such; the G8 would be regulated to daily driver duties). Pontiac would definitely drive me away as a customer.

I can already forsee all of the Pontiac dealers readying their "Market Price Adjustment" stickers now :angry2:

Edited February 11, 200719 yr by GMTruckGuy74

Here are my real-world G8 pics:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=15443

or afford one!

The majority of people on this website probably can't afford it. You're basically saying your's and few other's opinions are the only ones that matter... In other words, C&G is useless banter. Yeeeah.

Before you retaliate with pictures of the Catera, GTO, and Contour/Mondeo, I'll say I get your point. The point I'm making with this post is, rebadging a car from an international market can work, if the car is relevant in the target market and priced right. As I've said a couple of times before, lessons were learned from the GTO exercise, and the G8 proves that - notice the lack of a gas tank in the trunk, the choice of more than one engine, and what looks to be a much more extensive option list.

Exactly. High sales or not, those are excellent vehicles that sparked enthusiasm in those brands. That matters... and Pontiac has a larger dealer base (eliminating the Focus, as it sold well) with a highly appealing car that's alot more than just GTO v.2.

So...a Holden with a Pontiac grille and hood scoops is worse than abandoning the heritage of Chevrolets with tacked-on trim, Pontiac grilles and hood scoops? Pontiac has always been the least-defined of the GM brands...it never even fit into the Sloan hierarchy. Pontiac stands for "driving excitement" and its design cues have revolved around trying to look sporty, however that has been defined at the time of each car's design. The only consistent Pontiac cues have been the arrowhead and the split grille. Everything else has been here today, gone tomorrow. Since the G8 looks sporty, exciting and aggressive, it looks more like a Pontiac to me (driving excitement) than any ribbed, hood-scooped, ground effected Chevrolet with an Arrowhead logo. Pontiac has always competed with the Chevrolet SS...at least this is finally something without internal duplication.

Exactly.

Nissan and Cadillac were both irrelevant by the turn of the century. There's no argument that both brands are in much better shape now. Why act as if Pontiac is any more of a lost cause than those two?

The Catera was, for all intents and purposes, a piece of garbage. Electrical demons were everywhere and engine reliability wasn't that great either. GM also engineeered all the European-ness out of the suspension, the one good quality that the Omega had. I don't see how anyone can mention Catera and G8 in the same sentence, except maybe this one: "Quite frankly, the Catera isn't fit to sit behind a running G8 and inhale its exhaust fumes." The GTO's styling was from an era that had passed quite a few years ago in this country, and was arguably its biggest handicap. The G8 is a much more contemporary design that as you can see has a lot of people talking. I have heard too many people walk away from the car impressed to believe that it is not "enough" of a design. According to Northstar, the G8 display was more crowded than the Camaro display was last year. That should say something.

Touche. (though I would like to see Focus year to year sales because I thought it did fairly well). All three of them, however, were loved by the media when they first came to the US. Anyway, IIRC both Lexus and Infiniti have used various foreign market Toyotas and Nissans for the US market in the past. Regardless of sales numbers, the vehicles did help to grow the brands' presence in the US.

And I once again agree.

Evok, I generally agree with what you say, but I think you're wrong here.

Edited February 11, 200719 yr by blackviper8891

The majority of people on this website probably can't afford it. You're basically saying your's and few other's opinions are the only ones that matter... In other words, C&G is useless banter. Yeeeah.

Evok, I generally agree with what you say, but I think you're wrong here.

You said it not me. I just find people a lot more honest when their hard earned money reflects their opinion.

It is easy to talk.

That is why focus groups are bull$hit.

AWD is not required to drive a car effectively in snow. An Audi A4 Quattro with performance tires will not perform well in snow. A Mini Cooper S, Mazda 3 or Subaru WRX with performance tires will not perform well in snow. Whether the car is front, rear or all-wheel drive the tires have a HUGE impact on it's performance in inclement weather...particularly winter.

A BMW 3-Series or Cadillac CTS with RWD, traction control and a set of 4 winter tires will run out of ground clearance before it runs out of traction in a snow storm. I drove my old 2000 BMW 323i in snow all the time with zero issues on a set of Blizzaks, 5 speed manual trans, and traction control. My friend's doing the same thing with his CTS.

MY GOD YOU DO NOT GET IT.

it is not whether it is required or not for the car to function in a basic way. IT'S WHETHER OR NOT IS HAS IT THAT PEOPLE WILL BUY THE DAMN CAR>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO with whether the BUYERS OF THE CAR WANT IT OR NOT. if the buyer wants to buy a car with it, the car better have it.

WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE IT WILL BE ON THE CTS?

Edited February 11, 200719 yr by regfootball

You said it not me. I just find people a lot more honest when their hard earned money reflects their opinion.

It is easy to talk.

I'll be letting my money reflect my opinion once I'm ready. Assuming the Ute doesn't make it here, the G8 will be the one for me. How is that for honesty?

You said it not me. I just find people a lot more honest when their hard earned money reflects their opinion.

It is easy to talk.

That is why focus groups are bull$hit.

That has nothing to do with not being able to afford one. People's tastes aren't going to make sudden 180 degree turns, especially me. I'm picky as it is, and I think it's absolutely perfect. If I had $30k in my pocket and were car shopping, it wouldn't change a thing. 60% of people here seem to think it is, too. Not to mention that most of the those who can afford one on here, likes it as is. You, Balthy, Ocn, and few other dissenters aren't going to make much of an impact.

G8 detractors, let's just go back to this

we can always go back!

G8 detractors, let's just go back to this

we can always go back!

Ugh...no thanks...those nightmares of Pontiac past (and many others) are best forgotten...

That has nothing to do with not being able to afford one. People's tastes aren't going to make sudden 180 degree turns, especially me. I'm picky as it is, and I think it's absolutely perfect. If I had $30k in my pocket and were car shopping, it wouldn't change a thing. 60% of people here seem to think it is, too. Not to mention that most of the those who can afford one on here, likes it as is. You, Balthy, Ocn, and few other dissenters aren't going to make much of an impact.

We will find out in a year or so. I just do not see the vehicle being a homerun and bringing in conquest sales.

As I have said, GM's success in bringing international vehicles to the US has been dismal. Pontiac has had little success selling Bonnevilles in the price range where the G8 will be situated, the GP same thing. The G6 has been a bust. The Solstice sales have begun to slow to a crawl in recent months.

So why should the G8 drive demand for the brand when there is little that is stand out compared to the competition visually.

I am not debating the mechanics and technicals of the vehicle, but I bring up points that I believe are valid as to how the greater market will perceive this vehicle.

Guaging public opinion on a fan site is not going to show much.

For what it is worth, most people that I have discussed the vehicle with, who are not fluent in the day to day of automotive have been lukewarm to the styling. And it being a Pontiac did not help.

The G8 is good looking vehicle. But I highly doubt it will move the interest needle because it is derivative. In particular, the split grill styling is dated and tired and is a liability to an otherwise good product.

There is no doubt in my mind if the G8 was a Nissan or other brand it would be a hands down winner. It is just that Pontiac reputation calls for somthing bolder at least in the front end to spark real interest in the brand.

All I have to use is the success of the CTS and Escalade compared to the STS and SRX to illustrate what it takes to turn a brand around and change public perceptions when a brand is in a hole.

Reg- you so cute!

I could afford a G8, but I chose not to spend that kind of money. I no longer see any wisdom in buying new- the depreciation on ANY new vehicle is a financial hammerblow to the temple. I'm not ruling out another new purchase- but the price tags for what serves my needs & desires are no longer palatable. Finance? - I have zero debt and I don't want any.

>>"You, Balthy, Ocn, and few other dissenters aren't going to make much of an impact."<<

Not trying to, but I hope you realize neither will the "60%" who love the G8 unless they sign the bottom line.

Croc- >>"Pontiac has always been the least-defined of the GM brands...it never even fit into the Sloan hierarchy."<<

Actually, Pontiac was developed for two reasons: to realize economies of scale with Chevrolet, and to fill a gap in the Sloan Heirarchy. For the bulk of Pontiac's history it possessed at least as much and for a good while; more defintion than Olds- here I would say that would cover 1955 thru 1990.

From Northie's great pics in the other thread, it's clear the G8 is completely contemporary and yes, it's appealing. Ocn, evok & I are simply holding Pontiac up to a higher standard for multiple reasons. Perhaps --and as I've stated: I hope so-- the G8 will do well in the market, but held to a higher, more heritage-cognicent standard, it would do even better. Pontiac has more brand heritage than Chevrolet, Oldsmobile & Buick (tho not Cadillac)- is the G8 all it can be, all it should be?

I agree with evok. GM has a terrible track record with bringing over foreign market vehicles. And don't forget the Saturn L-Series, where sprinkling a little Americana did not work. I do hope the G8 gets some traction where the GTO did not because it has the right number of doors, contemporary styling, and a better feature set. The car does need a front end that doesn't look like a warmed over Grand Am, somewhat along the lines of the original Aurora breaking from the past. In the near luxury market, the competition is intense, and Pontiac is not an aspirational brand at all. Marketing is going to be key. The local Pontiac dealer does not give me warm feelings. Telling me that they will sell me a GTO for $5,000 over sticker did not help.

MY GOD YOU DO NOT GET IT.

it is not whether it is required or not for the car to function in a basic way. IT'S WHETHER OR NOT IS HAS IT THAT PEOPLE WILL BUY THE DAMN CAR>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO with whether the BUYERS OF THE CAR WANT IT OR NOT. if the buyer wants to buy a car with it, the car better have it.

WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE IT WILL BE ON THE CTS?

So, Pontiac is showing a performance sedan with 50/50 weight distribution, RWD and performance tires. How does adding AWD to that configuration improve the cars ability to drive through snow? Adding AWD adds weight to said performance sedan and wouldn't improve it chances in the snow due to the tires. Yeah, and *I* don't get it.

So, when you were done testing driving the current gen CTS and wrote it off due to no AWD, you then went down to the Ford dealer and picked-up a 500?????

I'd say the next gen CTS will offer AWD because BMW and Infiniti offer it. A simpler idea would be to offer a a winter tires package at the time of purchase. Saab dealers have been effective for years selling a winter tires and wheels at the time of new car purchase.

We will find out in a year or so. I just do not see the vehicle being a homerun and bringing in conquest sales.

As I have said, GM's success in bringing international vehicles to the US has been dismal. Pontiac has had little success selling Bonnevilles in the price range where the G8 will be situated, the GP same thing. The G6 has been a bust. The Solstice sales have begun to slow to a crawl in recent months.

So why should the G8 drive demand for the brand when there is little that is stand out compared to the competition visually.

I am not debating the mechanics and technicals of the vehicle, but I bring up points that I believe are valid as to how the greater market will perceive this vehicle.

Guaging public opinion on a fan site is not going to show much.

For what it is worth, most people that I have discussed the vehicle with, who are not fluent in the day to day of automotive have been lukewarm to the styling. And it being a Pontiac did not help.

The G8 is good looking vehicle. But I highly doubt it will move the interest needle because it is derivative. In particular, the split grill styling is dated and tired and is a liability to an otherwise good product.

There is no doubt in my mind if the G8 was a Nissan or other brand it would be a hands down winner. It is just that Pontiac reputation calls for somthing bolder at least in the front end to spark real interest in the brand.

All I have to use is the success of the CTS and Escalade compared to the STS and SRX to illustrate what it takes to turn a brand around and change public perceptions when a brand is in a hole.

Fair enough.

Lets not forget that in a few years this went from this

to this

Personally id rather be rolling in the 6 four, and im not saying that this car is going to be looked the same way but in a segment with such few standouts who knows? well see what happens but i think it will capture the appeal of a broader crowd than say the hardcore pontiac fan.

I know people what looked back fondly on the malibu and were so let down and disappointed it looks the way it does.

--I just like to say the lower brake light looks pretty neat. Id like to see it moved up with a turn light right under it.

THink thatd look good.

as already said a couple times here and there the one thing that will bury this car is the way in which they price it.

Dealers need to finally understand you sell someone five cars over 15 years. I bet once you drive this f*cker and decide to get it there wont be an ounce of buyers remorse. Treat it like that and youll get a satisfied customer for another.

This is a good start, I think. Again

The G8 is absolutely NOTHING like the Catera or L series. Some are just mad because it's not a return of the B body with fender skirts and vinyl roofs.

Edited February 12, 200719 yr by Chicagoland

Pontiac has more brand heritage than Chevrolet, Oldsmobile & Buick (tho not Cadillac)

How do you see that? I think they all have equal amounts in the GM legacy.

Edited February 12, 200719 yr by LosAngeles

Croc- >>"Pontiac has always been the least-defined of the GM brands...it never even fit into the Sloan hierarchy."<<

Actually, Pontiac was developed for two reasons: to realize economies of scale with Chevrolet, and to fill a gap in the Sloan Heirarchy. For the bulk of Pontiac's history it possessed at least as much and for a good while; more defintion than Olds- here I would say that would cover 1955 thru 1990.

Yes, economies of scale with Chevrolet. That's the only recurring theme throughout its history. I'd love to know where in the Sloan hierarchy Pontiac fit (according to you) because Sloan generally went Chevrolet -> Oldsmobile -> Buick -> Cadillac. Pontiac was sometimes an experimental division, other times a virtual duplicate of Chevrolet SS. I disagree about Oldsmobile...I think Oldsmobile was fairly well defined as an everyman car for the upper-middle class. I think the main problem with Oldsmobile was the stodgy styling that afflicted the division from the late 80s onward until the Aurora. The new lineup was even credible IMO and just needed a few more years to catch on, but I think the brand was salvageable. Clearly Oldsmobile couldn't have been too poorly defined if it was selling 1,000,000 in the 1980s...but the financial problems of the early 90s meant Olds and Buick grew too close until a too-little, too-late/not enough time renaissance.

I really like the G8, but it does remind me of this....

... the Mazda Mazdaspeed Mazda6. It's an enthusiast's dream with AWD, six-speed manual, excellent chassis, direct injection turbo, cool technology, AND four midsized doors, yet dealers around here are offering $9,000 off. It's an excellent car in every way, but no one's buying it, not even at $21,990. The lack of brand distinction and name recognition is killing its chances.

So, Pontiac is showing a performance sedan with 50/50 weight distribution, RWD and performance tires. How does adding AWD to that configuration improve the cars ability to drive through snow? Adding AWD adds weight to said performance sedan and wouldn't improve it chances in the snow due to the tires. Yeah, and *I* don't get it.

So, when you were done testing driving the current gen CTS and wrote it off due to no AWD, you then went down to the Ford dealer and picked-up a 500?????

I'd say the next gen CTS will offer AWD because BMW and Infiniti offer it. A simpler idea would be to offer a a winter tires package at the time of purchase. Saab dealers have been effective for years selling a winter tires and wheels at the time of new car purchase.

again, you show error in two ways. you are an example of someone who can only see things in their own situation, and fail to see the car market as a whole. One if a car has 50/50 weight dist the car is only getting 50% of the weight propelling the car. all 4 wheels propelling the car = 100% of the weight. how is that not better.

and yes, CTS offers it because the BUYERS OF THE COMPETITION EXPECT IT. You just don't understand why certain things matter to other buyers, do you? Its moot whether it matters to you or not. If the target segment of buyers thinks its an advantage then offer it on the car. If the c class, a4, bmw3, infiniti G, and Lexus IS and GS as well as the STS ALL offer AWD then dammit the CTS better have it. The people buying these cars are smart and make money, so they must know what they want and what works better for them. I doubt they would listen to you try to convince them they do not need it.

and the by the way, snow tires is a good idea, but most folks don't want the hassle of seaosnal tire changes and even then with snow tires on both awd still beats rwd only for getting around. What's wrong with extra traction? Let's take one of your two winter boots off and let you try to walk up an icy and snowy inclined driveway.

Oh and why do I write off a CTS after an excellent test drive? How bout a monthly payment that's about 200-400 bucks a month higher than what I have? So many people around here like to talk smack like they can afford to buy any car for sale in the US. puhlease. We all have budgets. Half of those talking smack are driving beaters and could never come up with a down payment on a 6 year old used car. Much less a Camaro that everyone is so picky about.

Edited February 12, 200719 yr by regfootball

I really like the G8, but it does remind me of this....

... the Mazda Mazdaspeed Mazda6. It's an enthusiast's dream with AWD, six-speed manual, excellent chassis, direct injection turbo, cool technology, AND four midsized doors, yet dealers around here are offering $9,000 off. It's an excellent car in every way, but no one's buying it, not even at $21,990. The lack of brand distinction and name recognition is killing its chances.

there is a lot of used MS6's here as well. I think its because its only a turbo 4 popper. Apparently, no one wants a four cylinder in this size of car.

Also, this car was dissed pretty much by the automotive press.

Plus, die hard starch fanatics are so blowing Honda, Acura, Lexus and WRX/Evo that Mazda will not get a fair shake no matter what they do.

Edited February 12, 200719 yr by regfootball

It's probably more that it's not big enough for the American market. BTW, read a Car comparison of hot hatches including the Mazdaspeed3 and Astra VXR—with only fwd the 260 hp Mazda is even more uncontrollable than the 240 hp Astra. Both, like the 250 hp Golf R32, need awd.

Yes, economies of scale with Chevrolet. That's the only recurring theme throughout its history. I'd love to know where in the Sloan hierarchy Pontiac fit (according to you) because Sloan generally went Chevrolet -> Oldsmobile -> Buick -> Cadillac. Pontiac was sometimes an experimental division, other times a virtual duplicate of Chevrolet SS. I disagree about Oldsmobile...I think Oldsmobile was fairly well defined as an everyman car for the upper-middle class. I think the main problem with Oldsmobile was the stodgy styling that afflicted the division from the late 80s onward until the Aurora. The new lineup was even credible IMO and just needed a few more years to catch on, but I think the brand was salvageable. Clearly Oldsmobile couldn't have been too poorly defined if it was selling 1,000,000 in the 1980s...but the financial problems of the early 90s meant Olds and Buick grew too close until a too-little, too-late/not enough time renaissance.

Might I suggest you read up on GM and it's history.

I would suggest you start with Sloan's book My Years With GM.

Than I would jump to John DeLorean's book, On a Clear Day You Can See GM.

And finally, Maryann Keller's or Albert Lee's, Rude Awakeing or Call Me Roger.

Your comments are based upon personal opinon and not on the facts at GM nor do you appreciate the greater market forces that GM is up against.

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Pontiac and Buick are arguably in worse shape today than Oldmobile was in when Rock tried to revive the brand. Rocks attempt to relaunch the brand after sales dropped by over half in a half decade go to show how difficult if not impossible it is to change public opinion in a crowded market with good product.

I'm willing to bet Pontiac has a wider name recognition than Mazda, regardless of what's attributed to that name. Besides, who even knew the MazdaMazdaMazdaMazdaMazda existed?

Sad to hear about the Mazdaspeed6. I find it a package one can't go wrong with. Unless it's a premium-fuel-only car, which would scare me in these times of goofy gas prices.

And how can no one want a four in an intermediate, when they're buying them every single day so that they have the privelege of owning yet another Camcord or Altima?

The Subaru Legacy GT SpecB was a little more my style than the Mazda.

the mazda dealer here had 3 used ones. a broker had a used one. all were in the 21-22k range pricewise and under 10k miles.