From GM media online:

Pontiac sold 108,634 Grand Prixs during the 2006 calender year and 122,398 the previous year. The Bonneville sold just over 30,000 in 2004 (last full production year) and that car was axed. Maybe would help if I had model year figures instead of calender year (can't differ that much?), or the fleet/retail breakdown. I know someone is dying to point out that Avis and Alamo love Grand Prixs, but not 78,000 of them a year. I know high sales numbers don't translate directly to profit, but I think Pontiac needs to do better than this. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that GM is setting the estimates intentionally low, but even if they double the initial estimates it will only be about half of the Grand Prix, and that's not even including the Bonneville which this car was supposed to also replace. I just hate to see GM lose more market share.

Edited February 21, 200719 yr by AM6_Cutlass

Contrary to earlier speculation, the Grand Prix is going nowhere for quite awhile yet. This according to Bob Lutz. It appears that Pontiac will continue to rely on the Grand Prix and G6 for its bread and butter. The G8 appears to be an experiment, the purpose of which Lutz is not sharing with us.

The problem is your perception of the future of the brand. Once GM gets Chevrolet and Saturn straightened out with competitive product, Pontiac will likely be moved away from mainstream volume products and towards more unique, niche products. Think total brand sales volume between 100-150k instead of the current 250k.

Pontiac and Buick will no longer be depended upon to be all things to all people. They are freed up to sell nich cars and special cars that even with 3 name plates only have to add up to one brand total and not three as they have had to do in the past. It is a good way to cut volume and protect and keep good names viable. There is a lot of equitiy in those names and they can be rebuilt.

If one can turn Saturn around and if Hyundia can go from absolute trash to the new trendy car that Japan fears a turn around at Pontiac and Buick can be done.

Think of Pontiac, Buick and GMC as Acura is to Nissan and Lexus is to Toyota. Special cars for Special people willing to pay extra for something a little better and different.

Besides it is better to low ball your expected G8 sales vs letting a lot of them sit on dealer lots in a 120 day supply. If they need more they can bring them in. If you create a little artifical demand is better than discounting because of over stock.

Lets just hope the G8 takes off and they have to go for the 50,000 they say they can do if needed.

Pontiac and Buick will no longer be depended upon to be all things to all people. They are freed up to sell nich cars and special cars that even with 3 name plates only have to add up to one brand total and not three as they have had to do in the past. It is a good way to cut volume and protect and keep good names viable. There is a lot of equitiy in those names and they can be rebuilt.

If one can turn Saturn around and if Hyundia can go from absolute trash to the new trendy car that Japan fears a turn around at Pontiac and Buick can be done.

Think of Pontiac, Buick and GMC as Acura is to Nissan and Lexus is to Toyota. Special cars for Special people willing to pay extra for something a little better and different.

Besides it is better to low ball your expected G8 sales vs letting a lot of them sit on dealer lots in a 120 day supply. If they need more they can bring them in. If you create a little artifical demand is better than discounting because of over stock.

Lets just hope the G8 takes off and they have to go for the 50,000 they say they can do if needed.

You mean Infiniti?

I totally agree that Pontiac and Buick should no longer be just Chevys with more 'trim'. Also, the sight of all the Buicks in rental fleets years ago was a blot on its proud history. Used fleet cars are usually the first to get 'beatered out' and then sent to crushers.

Buick and Pontiac should be step up brands for buyers, not "just another GM car".

They probably don't want the same scenario to happen to this car that happened to the GTO. Which it won't because this car is ten times more of a car than the GTO was! The money spent on bringing the GTO here I think got flushed down the toilet and they now have semi-cold feet. I think the G8 will be a runaway success, hell I would love to have one for myself.

You mean Infiniti?

Sorry I get Lexus and Infinity crossed up once in a while. I try to remember Lexus is the one with a 4 seat 350 Z based car. Other wise I am not a fan of either brand.

The money they spent on the GTO was so small as it goes in the auto world that it really had little impact. What hurt more was any negitive publicity they got out of it for the name plate. So little money was budgeted that they could not afford the hood scoops and duel left and right exhaust the first year.

The only bad thing about the GTO was it being an old car when it came here at nearly the same time as the Mustang came out with a new car. Add the fact Dealers jacked prices up and screwd themselves.

If prices had been lower it would have sold out very quickly and much less would have been said. GM was no in a lot of trouble as they imported so few per year and did not expect to go high volume with this car.

I feel the G8 is set very realostic and should do well if priced as I expect. The only problem I see is what the Impala will do to sales and how it is priced. I expect Pontiac to make changes to set the differeance between the Impala and G8 to be greater in the future. I also expect the Impala to be less Euro and more American flavored.

Edited February 21, 200719 yr by hyperv6

Sorry I get Lexus and Infinity crossed up once in a while. I try to remember Lexus is the one with a 4 seat 350 Z based car. ...

Sorry, but you missed again. The Nissan 350 Z-based four-seater is an Infiniti, not a Lexus.

From GM media online:

Pontiac sold 108,634 Grand Prixs during the 2006 calender year and 122,398 the previous year. The Bonneville sold just over 30,000 in 2004 (last full production year) and that car was axed. Maybe would help if I had model year figures instead of calender year (can't differ that much?), or the fleet/retail breakdown. I know someone is dying to point out that Avis and Alamo love Grand Prixs, but not 78,000 of them a year. I know high sales numbers don't translate directly to profit, but I think Pontiac needs to do better than this. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that GM is setting the estimates intentionally low, but even if they double the initial estimates it will only be about half of the Grand Prix, and that's not even including the Bonneville which this car was supposed to also replace. I just hate to see GM lose more market share.

I don't think the 78k fleet number is too far off....

I believe the G8 will be a GTO/Bonneville replacement, rather than a 'new' Grand Prix anyway.

Keep in mind that there's a threshold number, beyond which the G8 will end up being built in the US, eventually. Selling out a few years production at 30k/year would be a good start....

Think of Pontiac, Buick and GMC as Acura is to Nissan and Lexus is to Toyota. Special cars for Special people willing to pay extra for something a little better and different.

B-P-G never directly competes with acura, nissan, lexus, toyota, or honda.

Buick is like a plush-entry-luxury brand

pontiac sport oriented brand

GMC truck/SUV/CUV

Lexus, acura, and infiniti are just luxury divisions of toyota, honda, and nissan. That's it.

Sorry I get Lexus and Infinity crossed up once in a while. I try to remember Lexus is the one with a 4 seat 350 Z based car. Other wise I am not a fan of either brand.

that 4 seater 350Z you mentioned is the INFINITI G35

Infiniti from Nissan

Lexus from Toyota

Acura from Honda

B-P-G never directly competes with acura, nissan, lexus, toyota, or honda.

Buick is like a plush-entry-luxury brand

pontiac sport oriented brand

GMC truck/SUV/CUV

Lexus, acura, and infiniti are just luxury divisions of toyota, honda, and nissan. That's it.

And Buick isn't just the luxury division of Chevy? Pontiac isn't just the sporty division of Chevy? Honestly, the only reason those two brands deserve to live is so GMC dealerships can have something to take up lot space.

Sorry, but you missed again. The Nissan 350 Z-based four-seater is an Infiniti, not a Lexus.

Hmmm, You may have noticed my lack of interest in upscale cars from Japan.

Anyway you should understand my point on Buick and Pontiac being a cut above Chevy and Saturn with out going to a Caddy price.

Cadillac is GM? :AH-HA_wink:

I think 30K a year is realistic. Pontiac sales will flush down the toliet. I heard the GP production stops in Dec, '07. I hope the G8 sells like hot-cakes and they need to make 50,000 of them a year, for that kind of a car it would be great. The image at Pontiac will turn around I even liked them when the made the FWD Bonneville GXP! I don't dislike RWD but for me it is not as practical, and I even love the G8! Pontiac will become more RWD and sporty let Buick stay more FWD and GMC keep cranking out trucks/SUVs/CUVs! Sounds like a plan to me guys.

Future of P-B-GMC, as I see it.

Pontiac - Majority or ALL RWD/AWD.

Small, mid-size, and full-size RWD cars. To include Solstice (or Solstice-sized) coupe, hatch/sedan, and convert, mid-size sedan, and full-size sedan and coupe. Possible FWD/AWD or RWD/AWD small X-over (similar to RDX or X3)

Buick - FWD/AWD mid-size (to compete with ES), RWD/AWD large sedan, coupe, and maybe even convertible, FWD/AWD large X-over (RX competitor).

GMC - Aside from losing the Envoy, GMC won't change from what it is now.

This kind of lineup avoids overlap with each other as well as other GM brands.

.... I heard the GP production stops in Dec, '07.

Bob Lutz said otherwise. Go back and watch his interview at the Chicago Auto Show. He said that the G8 will eventually replace the Grand Prix, but that Pontiac will sell the two cars side-by-side for the foreseeable future.

I hope the G8 sells like hot-cakes and they need to make 50,000 of them a year, ...

30,000 hotcakes or even 50,000 hotcakes are not a lot of hotcakes.

Underpromisse, OVER deliver.

With any luck they'll sell 70,000.

I know but they said Monte Carlo and the GP will die in by X-Mas 07...

Having a focused lineup of only three or four models is one thing, but each of those models should be a sales knockout. Just looking at the numbers, I fear Pontiac is doing what GM claimed they learned from Olds: don't alienate your core buyer. I have serious doubts about current GP/Bonneville owners buying Chevys or Saturns as their first alternative (GM was ingorant assuming Olds buyers would just buy Buicks). I'm hoping for their sake they know what they're doing and the G8 is a bigger success than anticipated. If the capacity is 50,000 that would be a start, and if the GP continues to be built past Dec '07(?) even better. More features/models also means more sales... I'd like to see them add an all-wheel drive option, and maybe even a hatch/tailgate model like the Holden concept of a few years ago.

Having a focused lineup of only three or four models is one thing, but each of those models should be a sales knockout. Just looking at the numbers, I fear Pontiac is doing what GM claimed they learned from Olds: don't alienate your core buyer. I have serious doubts about current GP/Bonneville owners buying Chevys or Saturns as their first alternative (GM was ingorant assuming Olds buyers would just buy Buicks). I'm hoping for their sake they know what they're doing and the G8 is a bigger success than anticipated. If the capacity is 50,000 that would be a start, and if the GP continues to be built past Dec '07(?) even better. More features/models also means more sales... I'd like to see them add an all-wheel drive option, and maybe even a hatch/tailgate model like the Holden concept of a few years ago.

Myself and many of my friends are core Pontiac buyers. We all love what we see so far in the G8. The sooner they kill off FWD the more we will like it. [That is if that is what they plan to do]

Most Pontiac people have had a Trans Am in the past and many are older and have no need for a small coupe. Most are waiting for a V8 RWD but hope they don't get too crazy with the price.

Pontiac's image is damaged but not in the same way as Olds. Most people think of Pontiac as performance but they really do not have much in a performance car. Give the people what they precieve and many will return. Olds on the other hand was my Fathers Olds and I had no interest in what I precieved as a Old mans car. The new cars near the end were better but still lacking of what I wanted to buy as a 20 and 30 year old. I still got images of my Fathers wire hub capped Cutlass every time I heard the Olds name.

The MC END OF JUNE , GP END OF NOV

The problem is your perception of the future of the brand. Once GM gets Chevrolet and Saturn straightened out with competitive product, Pontiac will likely be moved away from mainstream volume products and towards more unique, niche products. Think total brand sales volume between 100-150k instead of the current 250k.

So sad. BMW sells over 100K 3 Series here in the US

So sad. BMW sells over 100K 3 Series here in the US

Not really as BMW does not sell the 3 series under 3 different or more brands let alone different models.

So sad. BMW sells over 100K 3 Series here in the US

BMW offers more model variations for the 3-series alone than Pontiac would offer in its entire lineup.

Thats a safe estimate, but I honestly can see it being much more because most of the people in that spending range would go for a "safe" vehicle choice, IE, something FWD. There just aren't that many people in that price range looking for sporty RWD vehicles. When you get into the price range of 30-40k with the 3-series, your entire demographic changes.

Myself and many of my friends are core Pontiac buyers. We all love what we see so far in the G8. The sooner they kill off FWD the more we will like it. [That is if that is what they plan to do]

Most Pontiac people have had a Trans Am in the past and many are older and have no need for a small coupe. Most are waiting for a V8 RWD but hope they don't get too crazy with the price.

Pontiac's image is damaged but not in the same way as Olds. Most people think of Pontiac as performance but they really do not have much in a performance car. Give the people what they precieve and many will return. Olds on the other hand was my Fathers Olds and I had no interest in what I precieved as a Old mans car. The new cars near the end were better but still lacking of what I wanted to buy as a 20 and 30 year old. I still got images of my Fathers wire hub capped Cutlass every time I heard the Olds name.

It's funny how different people pull different things out of similar experiences. My dad and grandfather both had a hubcapped Cutlass (my dad had two). I loved Olds, and bought one (without hubcaps of course!)

My other grandfather is the Pontiac man. He always drove Pontiacs, and they all had hubcaps with whitewalls, column shifters (excluding the Grand Am) and front wheel drive since his '82 6000. His current car is a Buick Century (with hubcaps)

Currently, my sister drives a Sunfire and wants a G6 as her next car, and my g/f wants a Grand Prix. Bonneville was more my style personally, but that is gone already. None of us want rear wheel drive, and it worries me that more people may think like us than otherwise.

My dad's one friend was the only RWD holdout I knew. He drove Camaros, a RWD Cutlass, Cordoba, Caprice and a Cougar. After his daughter bought an Achieva, he finally broke down and let his wife buy a Grand AM GT coupe, and he loves it!

Edited March 4, 200719 yr by AM6_Cutlass

Underpromisse, OVER deliver.

With any luck they'll sell 70,000.

Holden can't meet 70K numbers. You have to remember they only have one assembly plant. They still have to meet home market demands, along with China, South Africa, and the Middle East demands, not to mention the new UTE that will be coming soon.

Myself and many of my friends are core Pontiac buyers. Give the people what they precieve and many will return./quote]

You mean like Pontiac did when you and your friends were whining the last time just give us RWD V8? When Pontiac did and gave you the GTO, you and your friends vanished. Pontiac still has those GTOs sitting on dealer lots for you and your core Pontiac buyer friends!!!!! :rotflmao:

Not really as BMW does not sell the 3 series under 3 different or more brands let alone different models.

Huh? Only one brand... they are all badged as BMWs...two regular 3-series versions in the US--328 and 335, 4 body styles (2dr coupe, convertible, 4dr, 4dr wagon) .

Edited March 4, 200719 yr by moltar

Pontiac needs a balance of a few FWD products with some performance RWD ones too. The G8, Solstice, GTO/Firebird/TA would be nice.