Based on the topic already in the forum (Clicky) I thought we can devote just to focus on

A)Only the G-6

B)What it will be for the Pontiac

C)What will you like to see in this car and why

These are my thoughts.

Having a RWD for that price to compete with the bread and butter FWD will be a cat in the pigeon sty. The G-6 should have power about the same as old 3 series and if about 80% fun of the new 3 er and we have a winner. The E90 BMW 3 is

Pricier

Cop-magnet

More charm and lust toy for people who do not care for and use its engineering prowess.

Build a car like what you said and we have younger generation early to mid twenties people, even early thirties vying for that car. It is potentially an untapped market.

But should have following criteria.

1. Keep the weight below 3500 lb.

2. Dimensionally should be more or less equal to the older 3 series.

3. The top of the line model should not go beyond $30k.

4. Offer one 4 cylinder making about 220 hp and one V-6 with about 260-270 hp. As a matter of fact it can even have 2 turbocharged four bangers, which will make them tuner friendly but not ricers.

5. Limit the production to 100,000-150,000. If Kappa can be justified for producing 50,000 cars annually, this platform will be certainly justified.

Moreover, market is a 3 series as well as FWD midsize sedan competitor. It will be challenging, but it is good to answer the challenge than just be another fish in the pond.

Yeah, I don't think there is a GM fan out there that doesn't want to see a RWD G6. I think the real challenge (as always) is justifying the investment. There are two sides to this. First, Epsilon loses 100K-150K of volume and what does that do to all of the parts sharing/distributed investment cost savings there. And second, what are the other vehicles that would ride this platform? BLS rplt., Holden Torana, maybe the next 9-3? Does Pontiac get a sports car on this as well? If your main platform mates are the Torana and BLS (which, in my opinion, shouldn't be sold here yet) then do you build this in NA or OZ or somewhere else? Lots of questions surrounding this yet.

But I'm for it. A couple of things to keep in mind. Yes, you want exciting, expressive styling, but you still want this to compete with the likes of the Camry, Accord, Fusion, etc. So you don't want to make it a sports car, but rather a car that is sporty. I think that is a key distinction to make when styling this.

This is the money car for Pontiac. It is the one that will be sold in volume. Or at least in Pontiac new lower volume niche market.

The key is to build less but make more per car. Also it is very important to make this a car not like anything Chevy or Saturn offers. It must be performace base even in the more base mode.

It must weigh around 3400-3500lbs

With out a dought RWD.

A low end BMW for the masses but with options and interior that is a cut above Chevy and below Caddy.

Cost $21K-33K or just under the G8.

Two Ecotechs one turbo'd and two V6 options one the 300 HP DI 3.6.

Manuel and Auto with paddle shift.

Coupe and Sedan with a later Convertible.

Unless there is a sister car with AWD I would not worry about it. The development cost for just this car would kill the program.

Make it the best handling and riding car in it's class and price range.

No fake scoops or vents. If they are there make it real.

A new original name no retro name with baggage to live up to in somes eyes.

Target 25-45 year olds.

Pontiac styling that is appealing but not too over board as the people in this class want to be seen, not stared at like they are in a clown car.

Pontiac is now free to make a car more their own so lets see them do just that. we do not need any more fancy Chevy's.

i could see it stuck on the EPII for maybe a half cycle... but sooner or later RWD at least, wether it's EPII based or ...alpha?

engines... 2.4 DI ~200hp, turbo 2.0L maybe (~260HP), and the 3.6L DI ~300hp

~22K to 29K maybe

sedan or coupe at least convertible could add 4K to sticker?

Either EPII or Alpha, both fine by me. As long as they have it around. Front wheel drive can be good too, as long as they fix the catastrophic understeer experienced by the Epsilon cars. The Grand Prix V8 as a living proof that FWD cars can be powerful.

Actually, I think what the new G6 should be isn't quite as important as what it SHOULDN'T be. IMHO...

(1) It shouldn't be styled with nostril hood intakes which will turn away most buyers and give it a ricey image.

(2) It shouldn't try to be a spacious, mid-size which tries to compete with Accords for occupant accommodations.

(3) It shouldn't be a 3,500 lbs sedan but rather should shoot for a target weight between the Civic and the Mazda 6 -- ~2900 lbs.

(4) It shouldn't be made larger, heavier or more costly to accommodate V6 engines -- stick to a pair of 4-potters making 170 and 260hp.

(5) It shouldn't try to copy the 3-series, rather it should carve out its own character -- a ride that is a compromise between an IS and a 3-series may be a good start.

(6) It shouldn't package luxury items such as leather, power seats and a moonroof with engine choices.

(7) It shouldn't force a manual tranny on buyers who want the top engine or sporty suspension. All versions should have a 6-spd auto option.

For item 7, I'm pretty sure by the time the next G6 hits, the 4T45s stock should have been exhausted and replaced by 6T70s.

(3) It shouldn't be a 3,500 lbs sedan but rather should shoot for a target weight between the Civic and the Mazda 6 -- ~2900 lbs.

(

At what cost?

At what cost?

At the cost of SIZE, possibly structural rigidity and perhaps crash worthiness. The current G6 is a BIG car. The interior isn't as roomy as it should be due to poor packaging, but this is a pretty big car. IMHO, the G6 should downsize to the size of a 2001 Civic. Structure should be crash worthy enough to meet regulations but it lightness should be a priority over tank like structures.

At the cost of SIZE, possibly structural rigidity and perhaps crash worthiness. The current G6 is a BIG car. The interior isn't as roomy as it should be due to poor packaging, but this is a pretty big car. IMHO, the G6 should downsize to the size of a 2001 Civic. Structure should be crash worthy enough to meet regulations but it lightness should be a priority over tank like structures.

Pontiac does have something the size of a 2001 Civic. It's called a G5 Pursuit.

From what I see right now, the G6 should be undergoing the same changes as what the Malibu is right now. It's not really going to downsize, but it's absorbing the crowd that would've gone to the FWD Grand Prix when the G8 hits.

Edited April 1, 200718 yr by ToniCipriani

Pontiac does have something the size of a 2001 Civic. It's called a G5 Pursuit.

From what I see right now, the G6 should be undergoing the same changes as what the Malibu is right now. It's not really going to downsize, but it's absorbing the crowd that would've gone to the FWD Grand Prix when the G8 hits.

The G8 is not a Caprice. It is a Camry sized car -- albeit one driven by the rear wheels. The G6 doesn't need to be another spacious hauler that is as large as the G8. It doesn't have to be the Camry/Accord fighter size wise -- the G8 will do that. It also shouldn't be a "not so high performance version of a G8" which is what it'll be if it stays at its current Epsilon size. Hence, sizing it between the G5 and the current G6 is will make it roughly a 2006+ Civic in size. That is not a small car. If you go back 10 years its how big an Accord is and it is what a mid-size is. The Civic is also 2800~2900 lbs. Hence a target weight for the G6 of 2900 lbs is reasonable even if it may be ambitious for GM which -- with the exception of the Vette -- has pretty lousy weight control discipline.

IF the RWD Alpha G6 can be about 2900 lbs with a NA Ecotec and about 3000 lbs with the LNF, it'll be in the right weight category. Even if it, misses the mark by 250 lbs it'll be an Accord or Mazda 6 in weight. That is acceptable. But if it turns up at 3500 lbs it'll be another porky sedan and RWD won't fix it, especially not when a V8 is off the table. IMHO, weight attack is the next thing GM needs to get good at. And if push comes to shove, I'll rather lose size and structural integrity for weight loss. Structural integrity loss may sound like a step backwards, but let's us all ask ourselves this question...

Is a 1991~1998 BMW E36 all that bad structurally? Or more importantly, is it unacceptable to YOU from a safety and chassis flex standpoint?

Thats a 3000 lbs car. And, no, it is not class leading in space, chassis stiffness or even crash safety. But IMHO, it is GOOD ENOUGH.

On the other hand, a 3500lbs car pushed around by either a 260hp LNF turbo or a 250~275hp 3.6 VVT is NOT good enough.

Edited April 1, 200718 yr by dwightlooi

FWD on Ep II. RWD G6 doesn't make since it would be pissing away market share. I want a balance between RWD and FWD. Pontiac needs a FWD midsizer still. And having a Malibu and Aura would not be to many cars to spin of the platform. *Excluding Saab's!*

FWD on Ep II. RWD G6 doesn't make since it would be pissing away market share. I want a balance between RWD and FWD. Pontiac needs a FWD midsizer still. And having a Malibu and Aura would not be to many cars to spin of the platform. *Excluding Saab's!*

Won't the next LaCrosse be on Epsilon II? 3 FWD midsize sedans should enough (Malibu, Aura, and LaCrosse) to satisfy Camry/Altima/Accord/Fusion/Milan/etc shoppers and Avis...

Edited April 15, 200718 yr by moltar

FWD on Ep II. RWD G6 doesn't make since it would be pissing away market share. I want a balance between RWD and FWD. Pontiac needs a FWD midsizer still. And having a Malibu and Aura would not be to many cars to spin of the platform. *Excluding Saab's!*

next G6 needs to be on EPS 2, agree. Pontiac needs their volume seller to be accessible and in a familiar and popular format. To bank on anything else is too risky. the G6 can be made to be wholly different in look and feel if they yutzes do their jobs right.

G8 will be Pontiac's large car. a smaller rwd car i am fine with as long as the G6 is there to guarantee business and the doors staying open for pontiac.

Edited April 16, 200718 yr by regfootball

Honda and Acura have shown that it is possible to engineer a fun to drive, and sporty, front wheel drive vehicle.

Although it seems Pontiac is kind of aiming at BMW, they should do themselves a favour and get a late model Prelude, and see what makes a great FWD machine.

Build it sportier than the Malibu, Aura and LaX trust me that is not too many FWD "larger" cars.

Tune it right and style it right, and drive wheels don't matter (thought I voted rear, for the record).

I was thinking yesterday though, that in this rush for intermediates to grow to the damn near the size of 60s A-bodies, that there hould abe a car kinda in-between with "tunable pep."

You know, where's that 180-184" car with decent rear interior room (more headroom in the back than the current G6), sporting character, and one engine that can go in either direction (spirited or sedate, a 2.5 liter about 210-230 bhp, 30 mpg avg. by today's standard)?

Something kinda like the Integra or Toyota Chaser. A touring car more so than a family sedan.

It should be a sporty AWD car. I'm not interested in RWD, especially having to deal with Pennsylvania winters, but I think that AWD would be cool. (Perhaps that's why I'm now driving a Subaru Legacy! )

Well the G6 concept was supposed to be AWD.

But the next G6 is FWD on Epsilon. (According to Northstar, IIRC.)

If GM is going to turn Pontiac into an affordable performance division (or essentially, a poor man's BMW), then the next G6 needs to be a compact sedan/coupe/convertible series on the rear wheel drive alpha platform. GM needs to leverage the cost of the platform for the compact Cadillac sedan; it can do this by introducing an affordable alternative for Pontiac for people who like the performance but can't afford the premium luxury price tag. Pontiac should become a niche performance division; it does not need a mainstream Camry/Accord/Altima import fighter front drive midsize sedan in its portfolio. The Malibu/Aura/upcoming Regal can handle this task.

i heard the latest was we would get an alpha pontiac to go with the g8, but that the g6 would remain as well, as a lower priced, more volume, entry level pontiac.

i guess imo, that's alright.

A RWD light sporty sedan, coupe, convertible ala Previous 3er.

well said.

I voted to kill it. I hate the car and I hate the name.

Before you all jump on my case for that, here's my reasoning.

The 3 series recipe is a good one, I endorse the concept. RWD performance needs to be Pontiac's focus (with AWD options). What Pontiac doesn't need is a Camcord fighter - that job belongs to Chevy and Saturn.

With all of that said, I see the G6 as a transition product to help Pontiac move from FWD boredom to true performance cars. So, yes, the G6 should move to EP II for a short time and then be killed as Alpha comes to market. FWD Pontiacs need to become a thing of the past ASAP, as does the lame G* naming scheme.

I'll be very happy to see them go.

Rebody the previous-generation CTS and strategically cheapen it up? You can get a brand-new '07 for under $26K now...

I love that idea.

Just make FWD to keep SOME volume in the brand. You need some volume to keep Pontiac going. I think 100,000 G6 sales is resonable. You don't need to be perfectly lined up with BMW. Also who says FWD cars can't handle and pull good G's?

What Pontiac doesn't need is a Camcord fighter - that job belongs to Chevy and Saturn.

The problem with that reasoning is that the G6 is selling well, while the Saturn Aura is not.

Light, sporty, rear-drive.

But for hte love of God ditch the lame name.

alpha and zeta models.....

g8 sedan

g8 wagon

gto

gto convertible (mebbe)

alpha sedan

alpha coupe and or hatch

fwd g6 sedan and coupe for brand entry and fwd buyers, but tune them for best performance

no vibe....

solstice and solstice coupe

i would consider a sports crossover like an amped up cx-7.

and that's about it.

the alpha and zeta cars and solstice provide the brand image. the g6 fwd rounds out the volume and makes it accessible for brand entry and some mainstream volume. i.e younger buyers with not a lot to spend.

Edited August 28, 200718 yr by regfootball

After seeing the new Mazda 6, I'd say GM's got its work cut out for it!