From CAR Magazine - Opel cans Calibra Mk2

In short, Lutz proposed the idea as a way to get more utilization out of the Alpha platform, but GME nixed it based on Europe's upcoming CO2 regulations. That is, a rear-drive car is naturally less efficient than a comparable front-driver, and hence produces more CO2 pollution - it's basically Europe's version of CAFE regs. Lutz also noted that the Alpha-based small Caddy would be imported to Europe regardless when it appears.

The comments under the article basically seem to rag on Lutz for trying to push an "inefficient" product on Europeans - I fail to see how it's any more wasteful than the supremely overweight BMW 1-series, personally.

I'm sure PCS can regale us with tales of the boardroom meetings behind this story...

If they want more utilization, build it as a Pontiac—BPG sells just as many cars as Opel anyhow.

In short, Lutz proposed the idea as a way to get more utilization out of the Alpha platform, but GME nixed it based on Europe's upcoming CO2 regulations. That is, a rear-drive car is naturally less efficient than a comparable front-driver, and hence produces more CO2 pollution - it's basically Europe's version of CAFE regs.

Note that I'm not making that assertion; just explaining what the rationale behind their decision seems to be.

I wasn't going to say anything about this. All I will say is GME will not be helping Holden either with Zeta or Alpha.

That's too bad.....

A report on the limits the European Parliament voted in can be found here. For comparison purposes here are some of the CO2 emissions of some Audi models sold in Europe today (from www.audi.pt):

1. Audi A3 1.9TDI (105hp): 129g/Km

2. Audi A3 3.2V6: 254g/Km

3. Audi A8 3.0TDI Quattro: 227g/Km

4. Audi A8 4.2TDI Quattro: 249g/Km

5. Audi A8 6.0Quattro: 350g/Km

I'm sure the Industry is lobbying hard for these decisions to be delayed, but they are definitely facing a big challenge with both this and the CAFE regulations.

Edited January 27, 200818 yr by ZL-1

That's too bad.....

Oh yeah, I'm sure Holden will be devastated, after all Opel (or GME or whatever they're calling themselves) has been so helpful in the past and lets face it, they know better than all of us. Just ask them.

Ridiculous. An Alpha Calibra would have been a sweet Opel, and that is sooo much BS about FWD being less polluting than RWD... what the hell are they talking about? This would have been a car to elevate Opel from mass market to BMW 1-Series fighter in the class... I guess GME is content to play at and well below VW in the market perception game.

A 5-door Zeta sedan with Maxx-like proportions and a luxury interior, diesel and 3.6L engines would have been a sweet rangetopper for Opel, as well... but I guess GME management knows the brand has nowhere near the cache to sell a luxury car.

Oh yeah, I'm sure Holden will be devastated, after all Opel (or GME or whatever they're calling themselves) has been so helpful in the past and lets face it, they know better than all of us. Just ask them.

I'm not sure why you're directing that at my post, I was serious. It would have been a sweet car.

I'm not sure why you're directing that at my post, I was serious. It would have been a sweet car.

Sorry mate, I misunderstood your post. No doubt an Opel version of Alpha would have been a good car and I would like to see rwd at Opel again but I guess that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Note that I'm not making that assertion; just explaining what the rationale behind their decision seems to be.

I know, I know. My parade of smileys wasn't directed at you; it's more for those inside GM (and anywhere else) that still insist that rear-drive cars are inherently less efficient or more polluting, just because they're rear-drive. Every time I hear this half-assed, baseless excuse, a little bit of my patience dies.

A report on the limits the European Parliament voted in can be found here. For comparison purposes here are some of the CO2 emissions of some Audi models sold in Europe today (from www.audi.pt):

1. Audi A3 1.9TDI (105hp): 129g/Km

2. Audi A3 3.2V6: 254g/Km

3. Audi A8 3.0TDI Quattro: 227g/Km

4. Audi A8 4.2TDI Quattro: 249g/Km

5. Audi A8 6.0Quattro: 350g/Km

I'm sure the Industry is lobbying hard for these decisions to be delayed, but they are definitely facing a big challenge with both this and the CAFE regulations.

I wonder what their strategy might be for meeting these standards - other than the obvious, jumping on the electric car bandwagon?

PCS, you need to do something about this toot sweet, or I will NOT marry you like you asked!

You know what the one of car sold by GME the gets really good reviews from the auto rags on that side of the pond is?

A 3 year old Galant is made by GME?

A 5-door Zeta sedan with Maxx-like proportions and a luxury interior, diesel and 3.6L engines would have been a sweet rangetopper for Opel, as well... but I guess GME management knows the brand has nowhere near the cache to sell a luxury car.

It's damn shame, too.

At least use the design on something, GME. I thought that the Insignia was such a gorgeously designed car, so bold and proud to wear the bolt-badge. It would be great to have seen it here as a Saturn flagship.

You know what the one of car sold by GME the gets really good reviews from the auto rags on that side of the pond is?

That got through before CPF said no more, after the new CO2 rules go into effect that car will no longer exist in the UK.

That got through before CPF said no more, after the new CO2 rules go into effect that car will no longer exist in the UK.

So CPF intends to fight the new legislation with crappy, small FWD cars...

Just as GME starts to show some promise, they go and regress to the mid 90's again. Of course, the regulations f*ck every car enthusiast over and I feel doubly sorry for Europeans now. Hopefully the US isn't dumb enough to start anything like this.

I'm sure the industry as a whole is going to regress on performance in the near term.

Oh well, that's fine. Holden, the middle east and GMNA can have all the RWD fun. GME can rot in it's own mess while the REAL premium automakers (BMW, VW, MB, etc.) charge ahead to meet the regulations with actual solutions.

Apparently the "greenies" are now winning the war against car enthusiasts on 2 continents now.

Edited January 28, 200818 yr by FUTURE_OF_GM

And just recently announced... BMW plans to stop selling RWD cars in Europe too because of new CO2 rules.

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And now more breaking news: BMW has just announced they have changed their plans and will now continue to sell RWD cars in Europe. In their statement, BMW said, "Despite other companies, such as GME, cutting all RWD offerings, we will continue to offer RWD vehicles to our customers, because we don't suck."

What importance is this to us? GME sucks.

That got through before CPF said no more, after the new CO2 rules go into effect that car will no longer exist in the UK.

Well, since that car is produced in the same plant as the G8, that means potentially more G8s in the US

And just recently announced... BMW plans to stop selling RWD cars in Europe too because of new CO2 rules.

-------------------------------------------------------

And now more breaking news: BMW has just announced they have changed their plans and will now continue to sell RWD cars in Europe. In their statement, BMW said, "Despite other companies, such as GME, cutting all RWD offerings, we will continue to offer RWD vehicles to our customers, because we don't suck."

What importance is this to us? GME sucks.

Funny and yet so true.

See, at BMW, they are doing things like producing cars that can run on Hydrogen and you can buy them NOW (even if it's the 7-series at the moment), and they'll have Hybrids too I think.

At Mercedes they're making a 4-bangers that debuts in the S-Class that makes 250+ hp and gets 40+mpg

Yet they are all RWD

Well, since that car is produced in the same plant as the G8, that means potentially more G8s in the US

Better hurry, rumor has it only two model years of the G8, before CAFE cuts it off at the knees.

Better hurry, rumor has it only two model years of the G8, before CAFE cuts it off at the knees.

The G8 is not built here, which means it doesn't contribute to CAFE, no?

The G8 is not built here, which means it doesn't contribute to CAFE, no?

It will go as a new FWD model is installed at Pontiac, if Pontiac survives that is. This new model will help GM with CAFE in the long run. Besides which would you rather have if you had to choose, a G8 or a Camaro? Tough choice I know, but some must die so others can live.

Considering that's only 2 I'd rather keep both and kill, say the TrailBlazer, or Envoy, or both, or Colorado/Canyon. Let those die so Zeta can live.

Funny and yet so true.

See, at BMW, they are doing things like producing cars that can run on Hydrogen and you can buy them NOW (even if it's the 7-series at the moment), and they'll have Hybrids too I think.

That's true... actually BMW has worked closely with a company called General Motors on hybrid and hydrogen technology. Maybe GME should consider... oh wait...

I wonder what their strategy might be for meeting these standards - other than the obvious, jumping on the electric car bandwagon?

I want GM to take the risk with the Volt and E-Flex thing (and GM seems to be making a genuine effort), but 'seeing is believing' applies here IMO. I think the strategy in Europe will be small turbocharged engines (diesels and gas) and hybrids using something the 2-mode system, maybe in the end a combination of both. I believe that eventually every car will at least be a mild hybrid.

Re other posts about BMW and Mercedes, let's see how they do it. I'm curious to see it, but I think they'll just pay the fines and pass the cost on to the consumer. People who buy Chevrolets, Opels and Saabs would not be happy if they were charged more because of GM's non-compliance with CO2 regulations. People who buy BMWs and Mercedes are willing to pay more for 'image', 'status' and similar notions.

Edited January 28, 200818 yr by ZL-1

That's true... actually BMW has worked closely with a company called General Motors on hybrid and hydrogen technology. Maybe GME should consider... oh wait...

Well you know I'm sure GME could always take out Buick too. It would be easy to kill off the 3 models in North America and let Buick be a Chinese only brand. Easy as pie as a matter of fact. Then maybe both the G8 and Camaro could live. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited January 28, 200818 yr by Pontiac Custom-S

It's time for GM to actually put the RWD cars on the market and see how they sell inthe real world instead of second- guessing themselves ahead of the game.

I'm all for killing the Colorado/Canyon and Trailblazer/Envoy in favor of zetas.

Well you know I'm sure GME could always take out Buick too. It would be easy to kill off the 3 models in North America and let Buick be a Chinese only brand. Easy as pie as a matter of fact. Then maybe both the G8 and Camaro could live. :AH-HA_wink:

Can't take legitimate criticism? Threatening comments or attempting to run off specific types of GM buyers isn't good for business.

That got through before CPF said no more, after the new CO2 rules go into effect that car will no longer exist in the UK.

why are you *happy* about GM no longer being able to sell popular cars?

Well you know I'm sure GME could always take out Buick too. It would be easy to kill off the 3 models in North America and let Buick be a Chinese only brand. Easy as pie as a matter of fact. Then maybe both the G8 and Camaro could live. :AH-HA_wink:

but... why? Buick has already proven they can sell... with waiting lists even... when they're given world class product. Why should GM not take advantage of that? The Lucerne still outsells everything in it's class except the heavily fleeted 300 and the new, fixed, LaCrosse/Regal is on it's way.

What's GM gonna do if there are waiting lists for the G8.... and they sell everyone they build without incentives? Two years later introduce a FWD Epsilon Wide G8 and try to get that pig to fly?

I think our friend PCS, has become so caught up in the politics of all of this that he's forgotten the product.

He is full of pronouncements of "power" and damnation for everything RWD and Holden, yet where is the endorsement for any "superior" products?

I don't see what he and GME have to offer that we should all go crazy over. Where are his "gotta have" alternatives?

*crickets chirping*

Where are his "gotta have" alternatives?

And just recently announced... BMW plans to stop selling RWD cars in Europe too because of new CO2 rules.

-------------------------------------------------------

And now more breaking news: BMW has just announced they have changed their plans and will now continue to sell RWD cars in Europe. In their statement, BMW said, "Despite other companies, such as GME, cutting all RWD offerings, we will continue to offer RWD vehicles to our customers, because we don't suck."

What importance is this to us? GME sucks.

QFT.

Can't take legitimate criticism? Threatening comments or attempting to run off specific types of GM buyers isn't good for business.

Who's threatening, I'm thinking outside the box so both the G8 and Camaro can live to see more than 2 model years. I think if GM got rid of Buick in North America so the G8 and Camaro could live longer lives would be a fair trade off.

Who's threatening, I'm thinking outside the box so both the G8 and Camaro can live to see more than 2 model years. I think if GM got rid of Buick in North America so the G8 and Camaro could live longer lives would be a fair trade off.

Selling the horse to keep the cart.

Killing a brand to extend the production of two cars for two years?

Inane approach.

A wide variety in a flexible mix is what to deploy.

It's an idiotic manuver. There is nothing that makes Buick and the G8 and Camaro mutually exclusive. Not even production capacity. Oshawa, LGR, and Hammtrack have more than enough capacity..... and then there's always Wilmington... which I hear may have more capacity available soon.

It will go as a new FWD model is installed at Pontiac, if Pontiac survives that is. This new model will help GM with CAFE in the long run. Besides which would you rather have if you had to choose, a G8 or a Camaro? Tough choice I know, but some must die so others can live.

But I thought both were going to go?

Alpha can contribute to GM CAFE numbers, Zeta is so limited that it wouldn't matter anyway.

Now that GME doesn't want Alpha, maybe it increases Pontiac's chances of getting a seat on the platform.

But I thought both were going to go?

Alpha can contribute to GM CAFE numbers, Zeta is so limited that it wouldn't matter anyway.

Now that GME doesn't want Alpha, maybe it increases Pontiac's chances of getting a seat on the platform.

Works for me.

Let GME play with the lesser platforms.

Let's have GMNA do the right thing for a change.

Why don't you guys just get rid of PCS? He's an antagonizing bitch of a poster, much like buickman. Isn't that what we do around here when we don't like someone, get rid of them?

Don't tempt me... I have an itchy trigger finger.

i think maybe some are justifying him staying because he's a funnel of information.....

I don't see that. Besides that, when we can block out the information he provides, why wouldn't we? Since he's anti-Zeta, and, well, it's basically been a mission of the membership of this board to get Zeta approved, and then as many iterations of it produced as possible. I think that's justification for getting rid of him....

But, truthfully speaking, the question of his contribution remains, and does everybody appreciate it. Where has he given us inside info that was (a) helpful (b) worth putting up with the rest of his posts for?

When we didn't appreciate buickman's contributions....we got rid of him. And his I'm for GM but I hate GM stance is almost being replicated by Mr. PCS here...

Edited January 28, 200818 yr by turbo200

Why don't you guys just get rid of PCS? He's an antagonizing bitch of a poster, much like buickman. Isn't that what we do around here when we don't like someone, get rid of them?

Is that what you do turbo200 when you don't like someone? Odd I thought this was a forum, where people discuss different views and communicate ideas. It's not me you dislike turbo200, in fact you don't even know me. What you dislike are, the things I've said are starting to come true. It's GM's message not mine. However it's a sobering thought what GM must do to survive as a company, but trust me on this, it will do them. It has to!

As for me, I will go on record to say I don't dislike anyone, not in my nature.

The main reason I vote against banning him for now is that he does provide articles, news, and insight. However, he does post, in some cases, specifically to antagonize other members of this board.

Buickman was banned for trolling with his stunningly wrong predictions and commentary.

However it's a sobering thought what GM must do to survive as a company, but trust me on this, it will do them. It has to!

Speaking of stunningly wrong.....

Is that what you do turbo200 when you don't like someone? Odd I thought this was a forum, where people discuss different views and communicate ideas. It's not me you dislike turbo200, in fact you don't even know me. What you dislike are, the things I've said are starting to come true. It's GM's message not mine. However it's a sobering thought what GM must do to survive as a company, but trust me on this, it will do them. It has to!

As for me, I will go on record to say I don't dislike anyone, not in my nature.

nope. you're wrong. I understand GM must do what it needs to survive, and I hope for that, and I could care less if the direction they start taking is one you are proposing, because I know I will not die if these cars can come out, and hey even with what they've got now on the roads they wouldn't have won my business anyways [outside of some Cadillacs, Lambda, and the Sierra]. It's how you put it across. These are our favorite cars....and as someone in the know, you bandy about like you are priveleged and we are toast. And I don't care for it. My proposal: we do away with you.

Edited January 28, 200818 yr by turbo200

much of what PCS does qualifies as trolling.

Anyways.....I don't dislike you PCS. if you knew me, you'd understand it's quite the contrary. Your attitude on these boards and your disposition is what needs an adjustment. If it were my decision I'd have warned you several times. It's not bad to be reporting BAD news, it's the fact of daily living. Not a problem. It's how you choose to use that information to inflict frustration on others that gets me. I watched Rambo this weekend. You'd be one of the Burmese bad guys I'd be cheering Rambo on for slitting this throat. You torture others needlessly.