Wouldn't a V8 RWD Acura Legend be M45/GS competition?

Wouldn't a V8 RWD Acura Legend be M45/GS competition?

OK I misstyped.....

But I think originally, the Legend was more of a competitor, price-wise, for cars like the G35 (if it had been around then.)

Actually, the closest spiritual-successor from Acura for the legend is the TL......

OK I misstyped.....

But I think originally, the Legend was more of a competitor, price-wise, for cars like the G35 (if it had been around then.)

Actually, the closest spiritual-successor from Acura for the legend is the TL......

I agree with you about the TL. However, even back in 1991 the Legend was in a weird position. I was priced at 29k, right between the 3-series, which could base at 20k for the 318i while the more reasonably size 325 started around 25k, and the 5-series which based at 34,5k. At the same time it was sized substantially larger than both BMWs. The Legend was 10 inches longer than the 5-series and a full 2 feet longer than the 325i.

In fact, looking at what was available in 1991, it's very hard to match the Legend up to any of it's contemporaries. Either it's priced way above the competitor's entry models <ES250, G20, M30>, or pricing matches but it towers over them in size <190e, 325>, or size matches but it's price many thousands less than the competitor's mid-lux/full-lux entry <5-series, Q45, LS, 300SE, Continental>.

Strangely, the cars that match the Legend closest in terms of Price and Size class are the Lincoln Mark VII, Cadillac Seville, Buick Riviera, Cadillac Eldorado, Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo....... Not that I'm saying any of those were direct competition... they just all sit around the same price for the size.

So, back in 1991, it sounds like the Legend was a screaming deal if you wanted a subtle yet tasteful midsized luxury car. It was also one of the most powerful, putting out 200hp with it's V6 while Cadillac was doing the same but with two more cylinders. Only the Mark VII had more HP.

Fast forward to today and Acura is pretty much in the same spot with the RL.

acura's biggest problem, people know its tarted up hondas.

at the auto show yesterday, the TSX in rice body trim, the RDX in rice trim. Acura can't go anywhere when hondas fart can legacy is holding it back. no self respecting adult can take it seriously.

Infiniti has all distinct product from Nissan mostly. Acura is Honda.

acura's biggest problem, people know its tarted up hondas.

at the auto show yesterday, the TSX in rice body trim, the RDX in rice trim. Acura can't go anywhere when hondas fart can legacy is holding it back. no self respecting adult can take it seriously.

Infiniti has all distinct product from Nissan mostly. Acura is Honda.

Uh... Infiniti is Nissan, too. Just because the product is more desireable, per se... Doesn't make it any more "distinct". Most Infinitis are foreign market Nissans and most Acuras are foreign market Hondas. There is virtually no difference.

Edited March 9, 200818 yr by blackviper8891

Uh... Infiniti is Nissan, too. Just because the product is more desireable, per se... Doesn't make it any more "distinct". Most Infinitis are foreign market Nissans and most Acuras are foreign market Hondas. There is virtually no difference.

well inifinti G and M are RWD biased platforms with optional v8's too. i.e. real hardware.

that's the main diff. a TSX is an accord. So is the TL. if Acuras US offerings were on a real upgraded unique platform, they wouldn't have the issues.

their is a real substantive difference in every way between an infiniti G/M and the altima/maxima. the TL and TSX are all to similar to the Accord. Part of the problem is the Accord dynamically is too good of a car. that's the 08 is so ugly. they had to dumb down the accord some to make acura still worth it.

Edited March 9, 200818 yr by regfootball

well inifinti G and M are RWD biased platforms with optional v8's too. i.e. real hardware.

that's the main diff. a TSX is an accord. So is the TL. if Acuras US offerings were on a real upgraded unique platform, they wouldn't have the issues.

their is a real substantive difference in every way between an infiniti G/M and the altima/maxima. the TL and TSX are all to similar to the Accord. Part of the problem is the Accord dynamically is too good of a car. that's the 08 is so ugly. they had to dumb down the accord some to make acura still worth it.

Again...

Infiniti is Nissan, too. Just because the product is more desireable, per se... Doesn't make it any more "distinct". Most Infinitis are foreign market Nissans and most Acuras are foreign market Hondas. There is virtually no difference.

I do believe you lack some reading comprehension skills.

Edited March 9, 200818 yr by blackviper8891

worldwide your point is valid. but in the sphere of the US market, average consumers consider them to offer very different products.

acura's biggest problem, people know its tarted up hondas.

And when has that necessarily been a bad thing?

For a good number of consumers around the country.....Honda is a well-respected manufacturer.

So...."tarted-up" Hondas is not necessarily a bad thing in alot of people's eyes.....

(To compare to a Cimarron....which was a "tarted-up" Cavalier.....which was a pretty poor product to begin with.....)

point being, the 'little front drive cars that could' bit works for a honda brand, not for a luxury brand

acura will go into free fall soon if they don't get some decent product out. there was hardly anyone looking at acuras at the autoshow this weekend.

people still love the germans (real pedigree and real luxury and performance) and lexus (toyota fascination)

Edited March 10, 200818 yr by regfootball

I agree with you about the TL. However, even back in 1991 the Legend was in a weird position. I was priced at 29k, right between the 3-series, which could base at 20k for the 318i while the more reasonably size 325 started around 25k, and the 5-series which based at 34,5k. At the same time it was sized substantially larger than both BMWs. The Legend was 10 inches longer than the 5-series and a full 2 feet longer than the 325i.

In fact, looking at what was available in 1991, it's very hard to match the Legend up to any of it's contemporaries. Either it's priced way above the competitor's entry models <ES250, G20, M30>, or pricing matches but it towers over them in size <190e, 325>, or size matches but it's price many thousands less than the competitor's mid-lux/full-lux entry <5-series, Q45, LS, 300SE, Continental>.

Strangely, the cars that match the Legend closest in terms of Price and Size class are the Lincoln Mark VII, Cadillac Seville, Buick Riviera, Cadillac Eldorado, Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo....... Not that I'm saying any of those were direct competition... they just all sit around the same price for the size.

So, back in 1991, it sounds like the Legend was a screaming deal if you wanted a subtle yet tasteful midsized luxury car. It was also one of the most powerful, putting out 200hp with it's V6 while Cadillac was doing the same but with two more cylinders. Only the Mark VII had more HP.

Fast forward to today and Acura is pretty much in the same spot with the RL.

My mother cross-shopped the Legend with the Park Avenue(along with the Mazda 929). I could see Ninety-Eight customers cross-shopping the Legend also. Looking for the "next-step" in premium FWD cars. They're all FWD premium V6 sedans for their time. Years later, I cross shopped the first-gen RL with the Park Avenue Ultra... funny that. Pricing was similar. Performance (HP) was similar. Buick & Oldsmobile had more available features though (both Legend & first gen-RL.) Handling was different but not that noticeable between the Ultra/Touring and the RL.

And when has that necessarily been a bad thing?

For a good number of consumers around the country.....Honda is a well-respected manufacturer.

So...."tarted-up" Hondas is not necessarily a bad thing in alot of people's eyes.....

(To compare to a Cimarron....which was a "tarted-up" Cavalier.....which was a pretty poor product to begin with.....)

But they're still "just Hondas" the same way the Pheaton was "just a Volkswagen". I'm not saying the Acuras are bad cars, however they aren't separate enough from Honda to warrant paying the price premium. The RL is a great car on it's own... but when you survey the rest of the automotive landscape it ends up feeling more like a Honda Accord Brougham Ultra Regency Super Executive - Platinum Edition.

no, its more like a Kia

But they're still "just Hondas" the same way the Pheaton was "just a Volkswagen". I'm not saying the Acuras are bad cars, however they aren't separate enough from Honda to warrant paying the price premium. The RL is a great car on it's own... but when you survey the rest of the automotive landscape it ends up feeling more like a Honda Accord Brougham Ultra Regency Super Executive - Platinum Edition.

I'm not ga-ga over any Acura....but the RL is the only one I have a real issue with.

I think TSX and TL are both fine products, RSX and MDX seem to be pretty-well differentiated from their Honda cousins.

The RL seems to be the one truly bastardized product in the lineup. FWD-based, V6, not any roomier than a TL, doesn't really perform better than TL, way more expensive than TL, etc, etc.

In fact, (thanks Reg) I'd rather I think be more inclined to take a new RWD, V8-powered Hyundai Genesis than the RL.

But they're still "just Hondas" the same way the Pheaton was "just a Volkswagen". I'm not saying the Acuras are bad cars, however they aren't separate enough from Honda to warrant paying the price premium. The RL is a great car on it's own... but when you survey the rest of the automotive landscape it ends up feeling more like a Honda Accord Brougham Ultra Regency Super Executive - Platinum Edition.

The same can be said of the Caddy Escalade by general public. It is just a glorified GMT-900.

Like O.C. mentioned it is the RL that is the tainted vehicle in Acura Lineup. TSX and TL are fine cars, and so is the MDX. I have reservations for the RDX for 1. it is not fun to drive as they portray it, and 2. it is expensive. (Sorry siegen I feel that it is $3-4k expensive)

Acura's philosophy is more comfort and luxury for race. They are not raw speed oriented. But they get the business done. Frankly in daily driving with cruise set at 70 mph, a 505 hp car will do the same thing as a 200 hp FWD for most of Suzy Mcmansions, or Carlie Trailermacher, or Eddie Importhumper. Unfortunately that is where the 90-95% of US customer is.

It is a 2 way street. US customers get the blandness and less performance because they ask for it. Priority is not to hear rattle, have gulpies of coke and water, be able to talk while on the phone. Not about handling the twisties, or pushing the car to the limits or running 0-60 in between the stop lights.

The same can be said of the Caddy Escalade by general public. It is just a glorified GMT-900.

Kinda.... but it does look substantially different enough and has enough additional hardware to justify the price.

The problem with the RL is, cover up the badges and people might think it's a Honda.

You can cover up the badge on the Escalade, but no one is going to mistake it for a Chevy.

Pheaton had the opposite problem. Cover over the badge and people would think it's some high end German luxury brand. Take the cover off the badge and people were immediately disappointed with visions of Beetle bugs dancing in their heads.

Pheaton had the opposite problem. Cover over the badge and people would think it's some high end German luxury brand. Take the cover off the badge and people were immediately disappointed with visions of Beetle bugs dancing in their heads.

With the Phaeton, you'd have to cover up the whole grille, otherwise it is unmistakably VW. Once the grille is covered up it looks similar to an Audi, although not as good. I think most people would guess that it was an older Audi. If they saw the rear end though I think they'd guess VW. The tail lights certainly don't do it any favors. In fact the whole car minus the aggressively simple head lights is quite ungainly. It lacks the curves of a modern Audi, so the styling ends up looking like an older Audi.

Edited March 10, 200818 yr by siegen

With the Phaeton, you'd have to cover up the whole grille, otherwise it is unmistakably VW. Once the grille is covered up it looks similar to an Audi, although not as good. I think most people would guess that it was an older Audi. If they saw the rear end though I think they'd guess VW. The tail lights certainly don't do it any favors. In fact the whole car minus the aggressively simple head lights is quite ungainly. It lacks the curves of a modern Audi, so the styling ends up looking like an older Audi.

but you get my point..... once people knew it was a VW, their respect for the car diminished greatly.

point being, the 'little front drive cars that could' bit works for a honda brand, not for a luxury brand

acura will go into free fall soon if they don't get some decent product out. there was hardly anyone looking at acuras at the autoshow this weekend.

people still love the germans (real pedigree and real luxury and performance) and lexus (toyota fascination)

Ditto on the free fall thing. They need to find a marketing niche. Hell, their real niche was with move up yuppies in Integras. I think at one point they were, what, 60-65% Integra sales?

Without a decent small car, their sales tanked with the RSX...

Legend is a wierd car, and your right Oldsmoboi,it didn't really fit a niche at the time.

Chris

but you get my point..... once people knew it was a VW, their respect for the car diminished greatly.

Exactly.

Chris

but you get my point..... once people knew it was a VW, their respect for the car diminished greatly.

Phaeton is an amazing piece of machinery. Too bad people here think it is a bloated VW. Because it is not. The car is more engineered than a S class or 7 er or A8.

Americans care more for the looks and emotions rather than utility and thoughts.

We had Chinese Christmas this year (the one where you bring 1/2 gifts per individual, draw numbers and pick and exchange gifts, pretty fun). I put two gifts, one packaged very nicely and had a junk broken toy and torn bicycle tire, the other was a $50 gift cert for Outback wrapped in a newspaper. No prizes for guessing which gift got chosen the most before it was even opened. People were flocking it, while the Gift cert laid there till the end.

A CPO Phaeton was very high on the list to replace the CTS about a year ago. My direction has changed a bit since then.

but you get my point..... once people knew it was a VW, their respect for the car diminished greatly.

Yes I do get the point.

I usually equate the RL to the modern GTO. Yes it's true, the GTO was a nice design, but it was bland and the design wasn't suited to a "GTO". The RL is nice, unoffensive, and bland. Not suited to a luxury car. The new RL from the front does away with a little bit of the blandness, but unfortunately becomes a bit offensive to the senses.

A CPO Phaeton was very high on the list to replace the CTS about a year ago. My direction has changed a bit since then.

Those things come for a knockout prices. If I was in a market for a luxury vehicle a CPO Phaeton will be high on the list but with the W12. That 5500lb sled makes the 340hp V8 look anemic.

Those things come for a knockout prices. If I was in a market for a luxury vehicle a CPO Phaeton will be high on the list but with the W12. That 5500lb sled makes the 340hp V8 look anemic.

They are a pretty sweet car...I sat in one at an auto show, love the interior...though as far as exterior styling, I prefer the A8.

acura will go into free fall soon if they don't get some decent product out. there was hardly anyone looking at acuras at the autoshow this weekend.

people still love the germans (real pedigree and real luxury and performance) and lexus (toyota fascination)

Where are you getting your facts and predictions from?

"people still love..." and "Acura will go into free fall soon" <--- ??

Who are these "People"? You, yourself, and you?

A little late in the game maybe, but I just saw those pics.

If I were the Chrysler Sebring, I'd be pissed.

Acura RL is rumored to get the RWD and V-8 along with the H.O. V6 and rear wheel biased SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD for 2010-11.

Honda has internally accepted its flaw of bein FWD biased. If they bring a pillarless RWD coupe, 68 may actually drive one.

He'd probably cave and buy one for being a RWD hardtop then beat himself to death for the "shame" of having driven a Honda.

To add to what smallchevy said, it is still mostly rumors, but the next RL could have a 420hp 4.8L V8 and RWD biased SH-AWD.

Sketch from a Japanese magazine (not from Honda):

Edited March 19, 200818 yr by siegen

Acura RL is rumored to get the RWD and V-8 along with the H.O. V6 and rear wheel biased SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD for 2010-11.

Honda has internally accepted its flaw of bein FWD biased. If they bring a pillarless RWD coupe, 68 may actually drive one.

and the C8 Corvette is rumored to be mid-engined.....

To add to what smallchevy said, it is still mostly rumors, but the next RL could have a 420hp 4.8L V8 and RWD biased SH-AWD.

Sketch from a Japanese magazine (not from Honda):

Now if they had built that...... that thing is fairly hot.

though a bit small looking for an RL....it'd make a great TL.

To add to what smallchevy said, it is still mostly rumors, but the next RL could have a 420hp 4.8L V8 and RWD biased SH-AWD.

Sketch from a Japanese magazine (not from Honda):

I like its stance and is quite elegant. Not a bad looking car at all. Like Ol...boi said looks like a good TL.

and the C8 Corvette is rumored to be mid-engined.....

Well I would say the RL rumor is more likely to come true, given that there aren't really a lot of people complaining about the current Corvette.

To add to what smallchevy said, it is still mostly rumors, but the next RL could have a 420hp 4.8L V8 and RWD biased SH-AWD.

Sketch from a Japanese magazine (not from Honda):

Meh, a 2.4 liter 700-hp V8 that revs to 90,000 rpm seems more fitting with Honda's DNA, if you know what I mean...

Meh, a 2.4 liter 700-hp V8 that revs to 90,000 rpm seems more fitting with Honda's DNA, if you know what I mean...

You mean 22,000~ rpms, right? :AH-HA_wink:

But it only seats one, probably a disadvantage in the luxury segment.