True.

If things go badly on Monday, I will have quite a bit more to say on this.

So will I.

Smart a$$. :AH-HA_wink:

And you'd say the exact same thing is she had an '02 Impala or an '02 Regal.

Impala and Regal were not nearly as sporty as the Grand Prix. Buicks were made with 1 finger steering for the 65+ crowd, and Impala wasn't far behind in that regard. The Grand Prix felt more solid, steering was better and handled much better. If the Grand Prix was a Buick, the older set would have complained about the ride being too harsh, just like what happened with the CTS for the 03 MY.

So, you admit you didn't buy the car *because* it was a Pontiac, just one of the last GM cars to carry that particular engine. Just strengthens my case that Pontiac is redundant. Seems to me that if the 3.1 was the selling point, and the GP hadn't been around in '02, you probably would've wound up on another Malibu or a Century.

The ONLY reason I bought a Malibu, is because I couldn't afford a Grand Prix at the time when I was 18 and had no credit. And just because ONE person bought a car because of an engine, doesn't mean the other 500,000 sales Pontiac was getting a year were for that reason.

Why does Toyota need a Prius? If the Prius is cancelled, those buyers will just buy Camry Hybrids wont they? It doesn't make sense to have to market a separate car when they could have spent that money making the Camry Hybrid better. Right?

Blame game, a pointless and endless argument. What I cannot completely accept is that everyone points the finger at GM for making Pontiac what it has become. If anything, GM is merely guilty of accepting the wishes of the dealerships to have the lack-lustre and mediocre models to drive volume sales. If Pontiac didn't even want to be a quality niche player, the only thing GM is guilty for is not forcing them to be.

Last time I check GM was in charge of its brands, not the dealers. The dealers may have influence, but at the end of the day GM can say "yay" or "nay".

There's plenty of blame to share, but one thing is for sure...had the products GM has out now been around 10 years ago (quality wise) GM would be in much better shape.

Ok, I'll dumb down my wording since apparently none of you could figure out where I was going.

The G8--Take away the hood scoops and Pontiac badge and it could be an Impala or Caprice or Park Avenue, not an "original" design.

The Solstice--Had the concept been badgeless, it could have gone to any of GM's brands because its a jellybean. Literally, it looks like a jelly bean.

The GTO--Take away the Pontiac badge and it could have been a Monte Carlo, a Wildcat, a Nova or a Cavalier Z57.

The Fiero and Trans Am are the only really original Pontiacs of the last couple of decades, and last time I checked neither has been in the showroom for a while.

I think we have here more Pontiac fans than you will find anywhere else other than a Pontiac site.

I think if you polled people here most would say they love Pontiac and don't want to see them go.

What I would love to see how many here have owned a Pontiac new Pontiac in the lst 10 years. I also would like to see how many own more than one Pontiac presently and bought it new.

I have two that I still own that were bought new. One in the last 5 years.

The truth is I look at this also as the general public does. I own a Comp G GP the top line in 2004 and it is a nice car but after spending time in a Malibu it is a much better car for a lot less money and that is what a lot in the public see. THe 3.

6 is near as fast as my 3.85 SC and alot smoother with the 6sp. The Bu is quieter and better riding. It also handles as well on the 18" tires. If my mother would offer to trade me for my GTP I would in as heart beat.

The truth is even amoung many Pontiac fans today Pontiac does not make their favorite car anymore. Nor do they make one they really like outside a limited production Solstice and G8.

You can cry pout and pich a fit but the truth is the majority of American car buyers are hard pressed to consider GM anymore let alone Pontiac. Right now Pontiac has been a second string division and GM needs the money to save what they realistically have a chance to save.

At this point the only car woth keeping is a G8 and Holden can fix that eas and make it a Caprice. Remember it is really a Holden its not really a Pontiac.

The last true full Pontiac was the 1988 Fiero 4 cylinder. It was the last Pontiac only platform they offered that had a true Pontiac engine. Since then they were nothing but a better optioned Chevy. I should know I have owned many of these cars and still have two in the garage.

I know a few don't want to agree but it is hard to prove this move is something that did not happen overnight and would not take a lot of money, time and a major change in public preception to to avoid.

An average guy knew this was coming but the question was was is soon or as late as 2015. I think the economy just moved it upo more than anything. There are many things we can blaime on Obama but this one was on the way before he was elected with the lack of ireal investment in Pontiac for the last 15 years.

Witht he way things are I see other models and even brands that may not make it out of this economy. How much longer will Chrysler hold on and even Ford retain Mercury? Mercury is Fords Pontiac.

Such hate for Pontiac couched in questionable logic is what caused the trouble in the first place.

I'm tired of answering the BS around here concerning Pontiac.

The truth is that GM has a surrender mentality, and it will destroy all of GM not just Pontiac.

Pontiac is just the latest scape goat for corporate malconduct, but it cuts way too close to the heart for things to stop there. If GM can't defend the gates at the Pontiac line, then the battle is already lost.

After the Oldsmobile debacle, you would think that the lesson had been learned.

It hasn't been learned.

And GM will pay for that.

Again.

Exactly. Pontiac and the rest of the "divisions" have been dead or doomed for 30 years+ now. Even Chevy and Cadillac are not safe given the brand abuse they've suffered over the years. Sure, they'll survive the bankruptcy but will they thrive? I doubt it.

It was always a matter of time, or timing anyway ...

It is time to wake up and realize GM is that bad off and Pontiac was really that damaged. If you were so worried and cared for Pontiac why was there no complains in the 80's when they pretty much set the tend of Pontiac's decline with cars like the Sun Bird and Lemans. Even cars we thought were good like the Bonneville and Grand Prix today don't look so good now.

Umm.. because I was barely alive and couldn't drive?

Whats true and what people think is true are two different things. Just look at this thread. Pontiac has been on its deathbed since the 80's, yet there are people clinging to it as if the brand offers something original.

You're saying the Solstice, Solstice coupe, G6 coupe and convertible, G8, and G8 ST aren't original?

(In relation to the rest of GM?)

The G8 is an Impala with hood scoops. The Solstice/Solstice Targa are jellybeans that could belong to any brand if you pop the badge off.

With that vague description, any car could belong to ANY brand.

Appearance-wise, no. They could have gone to any other brand and wouldn't have looked out of place.

Ok, I'll dumb down my wording since apparently none of you could figure out where I was going.

The G8--Take away the hood scoops and Pontiac badge and it could be an Impala or Caprice or Park Avenue, not an "original" design.

The Solstice--Had the concept been badgeless, it could have gone to any of GM's brands because its a jellybean. Literally, it looks like a jelly bean.

The GTO--Take away the Pontiac badge and it could have been a Monte Carlo, a Wildcat, a Nova or a Cavalier Z57.

The Fiero and Trans Am are the only really original Pontiacs of the last couple of decades, and last time I checked neither has been in the showroom for a while.

The same can be said of ANY car design.

Just look at the clinics where domestics are debadged and passed off as imports, then revealed as imports. SSDD.

I'm going to reiterate. This is "speculation" up until we get the official anouncement. I am going to hold my thoughts in until Monday.

True.

If things go badly on Monday, I will have quite a bit more to say on this.

I'd like to comment on this "news", but like the two posts above, I'll wait and hold my comments until Monday when the real "news" (whatever it may be) is finally let out to the public.

I will say this though - I will not be a happy consumer without Pontiac (it is the one car brand I desire to own most from GM <the G8 GT>).

Take the badge off of this:

And you know what it is

Take the badge off this:

And you know what it is

Pontiac doesn't have any of that in the lineup.

Such hate for Pontiac couched in questionable logic is what caused the trouble in the first place.

I'm tired of answering the BS around here concerning Pontiac.

The truth is that GM has a surrender mentality, and it will destroy all of GM not just Pontiac.

Pontiac is just the latest scape goat for corporate malconduct, but it cuts way too close to the heart for things to stop there. If GM can't defend the gates at the Pontiac line, then the battle is already lost.

After the Oldsmobile debacle, you would think that the lesson had been learned.

It hasn't been learned.

And GM will pay for that.

Again.

+1

I'm tired of fighting the battles that GM should be fighting.

They can't even defend themselves in the media for gods sake.

The door is open to destroy GM and it will happen. There are too many determined to see it through.

Take the badge off of this:

And you know what it is

Take the badge off this:

And you know what it is

Pontiac doesn't have any of that in the lineup.

True....

It did at one time... But the media whined (because aggressive = bad or "tacky") and f*cked that up.

Appearance-wise, no. They could have gone to any other brand and wouldn't have looked out of place.

I disagree. GTO, looks like it evolved from the Grand Prix, and the G8 looks like it evolved from the Bonneville. The Impala, both generations since 2000, don't share any similarities with the G8. Neither does the Monte Carlo and GTO.

And I thought everyone always said they Sky looks like a Chevy, not the Solstice. But I guess now the Sky and Solstice could fit as Chevys? I guess the Miata could even be a Chevy if you remove the badge. Hey why not the S2000 too.

The Miata is very clearly a Mazda. Even if you didn't see the Ibuki concept that previewed the current generation, you can look at it and see its a Miata.

Such hate for Pontiac couched in questionable logic is what caused the trouble in the first place.

I'm tired of answering the BS around here concerning Pontiac.

The truth is that GM has a surrender mentality, and it will destroy all of GM not just Pontiac.

Pontiac is just the latest scape goat for corporate malconduct, but it cuts way too close to the heart for things to stop there. If GM can't defend the gates at the Pontiac line, then the battle is already lost.

After the Oldsmobile debacle, you would think that the lesson had been learned.

It hasn't been learned.

And GM will pay for that.

Again.

Not hate as I love Pontiac!

Just some of us don't let our love for a brand stand in the way of clouding our understanding what is really at stake.

It is like having 5 GTO's to restore but you can only afford to do 3 of them correctly.

Edited April 24, 200916 yr by hyperv6

The Miata is very clearly a Mazda. Even if you didn't see the Ibuki concept that previewed the current generation, you can look at it and see its a Miata.

That's my point about the Solstice.

Not hate as I love Pontiac!

Just some of us don't let our love for a brand stand in the way of clouding our understanding what is really at stake.

It is like having 5 GTO's to restore but you can only afford to do 3 of them correctly.

It's like having a 2008 Malibu, 2008 Lacrosse, a 2010 Cruze, a G8, a GTO, and choosing to restore the first 3, and send the GTO and G8 to the scrap heap.

If Pontiac dies, could the G* move over to Chevrolet as a Caprice? Or Impala SS? That would open the door for the El Camino rebirth due to the crash testing being done already for the US market and the badging and facias for the middle east (bowties) already being done. Would this NOT be a better product fit then the 'lame duck' G8 GXP that sits in a showroom amongst G5 and G6 fwd yawners?

I mean, the Impala SS RWD would be a great fit next to Corvette and Camaro - throw in the El Camino and the Sportwagon (Caprice Estate wagon anyone?) and you would have a RWD line with powertrains that are both efficient and exciting to drive with ZERO development costs (they are all done/Existing cars!!!) Come on GM...give the US what we want in a car

If Pontiac dies, could the G* move over to Chevrolet as a Caprice? Or Impala SS? That would open the door for the El Camino rebirth due to the crash testing being done already for the US market and the badging and facias for the middle east (bowties) already being done. Would this NOT be a better product fit then the 'lame duck' G8 GXP that sits in a showroom amongst G5 and G6 fwd yawners?

I mean, the Impala SS RWD would be a great fit next to Corvette and Camaro - throw in the El Camino and the Sportwagon (Caprice Estate wagon anyone?) and you would have a RWD line with powertrains that are both efficient and exciting to drive with ZERO development costs (they are all done/Existing cars!!!) Come on GM...give the US what we want in a car

Nope, don't want a Chevy. For some of us, if there's no Pontiac, we're not buying GM anymore.

Nope, don't want a Chevy. For some of us, if there's no Pontiac, we're not buying GM anymore.

And your screen name is CaddyXLR-V? Confused.

I buy GM...have a 'vette, an Escalade, a Yukon Denali and a Buick in my fleet. Never bought a Pontiac but have always wanted a T/A or Solstice - and the G8 GXP has me seriously looking at it over a Camaro SS/RS. I guess what I am saying is: Why would you not buy the same product rebadged and supported at a Chevrolet dealer? What are you going to buy if Pontiac is indeed dead? A Camry?

As cool as the GTO is, it looks like a supersized, RWD Cavalier (or Catera), especially the first year models without scoops and the Sport Appearamce (or whatever it wad called) package.

Best interior of any GM at the time though.

And your screen name is CaddyXLR-V? Confused.

I buy GM...have a 'vette, an Escalade, a Yukon Denali and a Buick in my fleet. Never bought a Pontiac but have always wanted a T/A or Solstice - and the G8 GXP has me seriously looking at it over a Camaro SS/RS. I guess what I am saying is: Why would you not buy the same product rebadged and supported at a Chevrolet dealer? What are you going to buy if Pontiac is indeed dead? A Camry?

It represents the best car GM made at the time I became a member here. I have owned 5 Pontiacs, and 1 Chevy(because I couldn't get the Pontiac I wanted)

It's the same reason I don't want a Dodge or Ford. Too mainstream, they need to cater to the masses. A Camry, not in my lifetime.

My next car will probably be a Porsche. Other cars on my list are the G37 coupe, 370Z, 335Ci, and A5.

As cool as the GTO is, it looks like a supersized, RWD Cavalier (or Catera), especially the first year models without scoops and the Sport Appearamce (or whatever it wad called) package.

Best interior of any GM at the time though.

Please, open your eyes. It's much easier to see that way.

The GTO really did look like a 90's generic blob. Looking at it, there was nothing that said "GTO" or "Pontiac" just "I'm listening to Blind Melon while drinking a Zima."

As cool as the GTO is, it looks like a supersized, RWD Cavalier (or Catera), especially the first year models without scoops and the Sport Appearamce (or whatever it wad called) package.

Best interior of any GM at the time though.

I thought it looked sort of Lumina-ish myself. Styling-wise, it really wasn't anything to get excited about (although there were other exciting aspects about the car).

I did think the same thing about the G8 until I saw a few in person. I think it's a great design now. It has the appropriate blend of sophistication and sportiness that could have taken Pontiac well into the future.

My initial thoughts about the GTO's styling never changed. A new one based on the Holden Coupe 60 Concept would have been a real looker though. It's a shame that GM/Holden/Pontiac never followed through on a production version.

The Torana TT36 Concept would have made a great smaller Pontiac as well, but GM once again failed to follow through with something that could have redefined the brand. I think Holden should have made a downsized version of Zeta to accommodate this car.

Just a bunch of missed opportunities (as usual with GM).

The GTO really did look like a 90's generic blob. Looking at it, there was nothing that said "GTO" or "Pontiac" just "I'm listening to Blind Melon while drinking a Zima."

After living with one for 2 years, it has only reinforced my belief that the GTO IS Pontiac and everything Pontiac stands for. It only took the Australians to get it right. I have never heard any complaints about the styling, only compliments. The GTO is European/Australian Muscle car. Low, wide, solid, but understated. BMW built their entire company on that concept. Don't insult me by compairing it to a 90s blob or a Cavalier.

Trust me, I held the opinion that the GTO looked like a Cavalier long before you got your panties in a wad on here today.

I thought it looked sort of Lumina-ish myself.

Hate must be in the air today. Lumina-ish, seriously?

Trust me, I held the opinion that the GTO looked like a Cavalier long before you got your panties in a wad on here today.

Oh, I thought the one that wore panties would be the Prius driver.

Guys let us deflate some of the personal name calling and return to the topic.

Hate must be in the air today. Lumina-ish, seriously?

Unfortunately, yes. It looked more like one of those Chevy rebadges that we are all complaining about on this forum (I also see some traces of the Cavalier coupe styling that Dodgefan was referring to). I respect its performance credentials, but I just don't think the exterior design was very inspired. The car really wouldn't have looked out of place at all in Chevy's lineup. It's just my viewpoint though. That's the great thing about design; it conveys something different to everyone. If you think it looked great and appropriate for Pontiac, then that's great too. I respect that you can appreciate it. No matter what either one of us thinks about it, it did find an audience and kept Pontiac going for a little while longer. The fact that it accomplished this feat with very little investment is admirable in itself.

Up to now, we only had the Edmunds report to go on. Now Bloomberg is saying it as well, here.

Edited April 24, 200916 yr by wildcat

Keep the name calling and the "I'm going to be a jerk today because I don't like someone's opinion" out of the thread.

Time for a ride in the wayback machine:

1964 Tempest

1964 GTO

Call it whatever you want, the last GTO perfectly fits the formula created by the original - hot engine in a rather nondescript body. Stop the hate.

Trust me, I held the opinion that the GTO looked like a Cavalier long before

Indeed, it must be quite a feat not to have heard that comparison ever before.

The GTO is great because of it's performance and refinement, not its styling. (Except the Ram Air 6, I think that made a big aesthetic difference for the car). If you like teh styling, well great, but others are entitled to their opinion.

I wish the GTO came back as this:

This > Camaro IMO.

I wish the GTO came back as this:

This > Camaro IMO.

+1. A very understated car.

I wish the GTO came back as this:

This > Camaro IMO.

That looks 90% like the 2005 GTO. Yes, I would like the GTO to come back looking like that.

A no brainer, IMO. Though I think the fender vents could stand modification/deletion.

Indeed, it must be quite a feat not to have heard that comparison ever before.

The GTO is great because of it's performance and refinement, not its styling. (Except the Ram Air 6, I think that made a big aesthetic difference for the car). If you like teh styling, well great, but others are entitled to their opinion.

I have heard someone say the new Camaro looks just like the new Mustang, but the Mustang looks a little better. Does that make it true?

The GTO is great because it is a total package. It is not tacky like the retro Mustang, which I believe became stale the day it was released. The Camaro does look good, and I believe will age better than the Mustang, but given the choice I would still choose my GTO over it. The GTO is what Pontiac should have always been.

The people complaining about the GTO are the same people who would never buy a Pontiac in the first place, and are happy to see the brand get killed.

And now Jamie LaReau of Automotive News is reporting that GM will cut Pontiac next week.

I have heard someone say the new Camaro looks just like the new Mustang, but the Mustang looks a little better. Does that make it true?

The GTO is great because it is a total package. It is not tacky like the retro Mustang, which I believe became stale the day it was released. The Camaro does look good, and I believe will age better than the Mustang, but given the choice I would still choose my GTO over it. The GTO is what Pontiac should have always been.

The people complaining about the GTO are the same people who would never buy a Pontiac in the first place, and are happy to see the brand get killed.

Because every design that has ever come from a car company has been a home run right? So because I don't care for the styling of the GTO means that all of the posts I've made wanting a G8 and loving its styling are untrue then?

Also, teh Camaro VS mustang thing is their opinion , so sure it's true to them. I personally love the new GT500.