Announcement/news conference tomorrow morning from 9 to 10 AM.

I'll take your bet and see you "the banning of classic cars" or "the banning of classic american cars because they're less efficient than TRUE classics"

(Good thing I'll have lots of guns by then)

Please, stop it with the stupid right wing delusionary nonsense.

I love seeing the freedom of speech being exercised.

Tomorrow just can't come fast enough so I no longer have to exercise my right to ignore others' freedom of speech.

Can we just go from the point of the announcement so we can further repeat ourselves in 16 page-long threads before we turn this one into a 32 page-long thread before then?

Tomorrow just can't come fast enough so I no longer have to exercise my right to ignore others' freedom of speech.

Can we just go from the point of the announcement so we can further repeat ourselves in 16 page-long threads before we turn this one into a 32 page-long thread before then?

1. click favorites

2. choose another site

Just sayin'...

1. click favorites

2. choose another site

Just sayin'...

There is a large majority of individuals here with points, concerns and facts I find worthy enough to sift for.

Just sayin'...

Nani?

The cocksure conformist apologists around here hate independent thinking.

Please piss them off when you can. :AH-HA_wink:

Keep writing those letters whenever you feel the need.

Bless you Camino, bless you.

There is a large majority of individuals here with points, concerns and facts I find worthy enough to sift for.

Just sayin'...

Fair enough.

But what many here should realize is that Pontiac and its fate are very important to many here.

So expect passion and long discussion in threads such as this one.

For what it's worth, two people in the industry with reason to know say that Pontiac will not be killed tomorrow.

No, I'm not going to tell you who they are as I know them both.

And no, I'm not taking their word as gospel (not these days), but it tempers my expectations a bit.

As I said, for what it's worth.

Camino:

Well this is positive news, I will pray you are right.

FOG:

I do have some fear Government will go after classic cars, that get bad fuel economy, that are fun to drive and have big V8's. Nothing is stopping them, plenty of "green" people on booth sides of the political specturm to support this. Hell GWB let CAFE go through, and I wasn't happy with him about that. Both sides have come under attack of our freedoms with things like CAFE or cash for clunkers law. Having said that FOG, as much as I hate to say it, I HAVE TO agree with you. I just don't want to say anything to loud. Then again why should I care if I write GM/Pontiac emails or disagree with others on this forum. Or disagree with government taking over compaines like GM and telling them what to build. The free market will work and the people will demand what they want. Keep fighting the good fight, I fear lots of things we will not like are going to happen to our cars and more importantly lives that we will not like. It this makes me stupid or crazy so be it. This group think scares me and that GM is the big bad wolf building un-efficent, poor quality cars people don't want upsets me.

I don't trust anyone or anything anymore, and especially government.

Edited April 27, 200916 yr by gm4life

Fair enough.

But what many here should realize is that Pontiac and its fate are very important to many here.

So expect passion and long discussion in threads such as this one.

Yup exactly Camino.

So the government is the new scapegoat to blame the Domestic's problems on? I guess you have to mix it up from the media blaming once in a while.

So the government is the new scapegoat to blame the Domestic's problems on? I guess you have to mix it up from the media blaming once in a while.

No government is helping the problem though. GM took government money and that opened up a whole new can of worms, GM should have changed alot of things along time ago. It would have started with better managment and not giving into the Union. Government is now part of the problem and another thing GM has to deal with. The sooner GM can get free from the government the better off they will be. Domestics problems started long before this bail-out but they certainly haven't helped, marked my words. (Government that is.) Government can't run themselves well much less a car company! I am just sick of everyone saying Obama and the Government had nothing to do with it, because they have been part of the problem since GM took the money. Just since that point, not before, although CAFE and regulations and poor trade policy haven't helped. Just watch out.

Edited April 27, 200916 yr by gm4life

>>"I do have some fear Government will go after classic cars, that get bad fuel economy, that are fun to drive and have big V8's. Nothing is stopping them, plenty of "green" people on booth sides of the political specturm to support this. "<<

Never happen : far too insigificant in numbers, and most run much cleaner than assumed.

Besides, they have yet to pass a retro-active law RE older cars that I'm aware of.

IE: if they were legal when new, they're still legal today. Overturning that is a dangerous road...

>>"I do have some fear Government will go after classic cars, that get bad fuel economy, that are fun to drive and have big V8's. Nothing is stopping them, plenty of "green" people on booth sides of the political specturm to support this. "<<

Never happen : far too insigificant in numbers, and most run much cleaner than assumed.

Besides, they have yet to pass a retro-active law RE older cars that I'm aware of.

IE: if they were legal when new, they're still legal today. Overturning that is a dangerous road...

A very dangerous road indeed.

The clunker laws are bad enough, if things progress farther than that we will have a problem.

But yeah, unlikely at this point.

Indeed, the classic car fear borders on hysteria. They aren't going anywhere, and the "cash for clunkers" thing is an intensive, not a mandate.

So what I could do s get a beat to &#036;h&#33; Escort, and then trade it in for 5k toward a Fiesta? I am so there!

Indeed, the classic car fear borders on hysteria. They aren't going anywhere, and the "cash for clunkers" thing is an intensive, not a mandate.

So what I could do s get a beat to &#036;h&#33; Escort, and then trade it in for 5k toward a Fiesta? I am so there!

Yeah, or imagine '68 getting another $250 Suburban--trade it in for $5k towards an Aveo?

So the government is the new scapegoat to blame the Domestic's problems on? I guess you have to mix it up from the media blaming once in a while.

The government should be putting their foot down and do something about the price of oil, not create these stupid ass Cafe mandates this is not helping us out any. Once again they are taking the wrong steps.

The government should be putting their foot down and do something about the price of oil, not create these stupid ass Cafe mandates this is not helping us out any. Once again they are taking the wrong steps.

Exactly, I am all for domestic production and alternatives. (bio fuels etc.)

From what I understand the new Impala is going to go Alpha should they continue to make it.

LoL! No.

The government should be putting their foot down and do something about the price of oil, not create these stupid ass Cafe mandates this is not helping us out any. Once again they are taking the wrong steps.

The only way to take care of our oil problem is to stop being dependent on it. I don't think CAFE is the way to do it though. Consumer demand will assure cars become more efficient on their own.

Exactly, I am all for domestic production and alternatives. (bio fuels etc.)

I mean why would you want to make it harder on the US business if you don't have to? All this Cafe crap does is make it harder for the Auto Industry. If it gets too hard people will loose jobs which hurts us Americans. I know alot of people who won't buy a new car, and this Cafe regulations stuff isn't going to help them out any because they are not willing to buy a new vehicle. It would make it easier on Americans to get the cost of oil down, not make cars get better fuel mileage.

LoL! No.

I was going to say, I thought it was going to be EP II. Chris have you seen it yet?

I don't think CAFE is the way to do it though. Consumer demand will assure cars become more efficient on their own.

Amen. You are exactly right.

It would make it easier on Americans to get the cost of oil down, not make cars get better fuel mileage.

The cost of gas in the US is awfully cheap now the way it is. It's better to build more efficient, less thirsty vehicles... the CAFE ratings haven't been raised in decades, after all. If the average is more efficient, less consumption.

Edited April 27, 200916 yr by moltar

The cost of gas is awfully cheap now the way it is. What not be more efficient and waste less? The CAFE ratings haven't been raised in decades...

They are for now until things get better, and then they will skyrocket again.

The problem with CAFE is that it fails - miserably.

It is not an approach that works, yet we still have it.

Please, stop it with the stupid right wing delusionary nonsense.

how is that right wing, not to mention delusionary?

I know plenty of left wingers stocking up on guns and ammo. Its just a hobby, relax.

two people in the industry with reason to know say that Pontiac will not be killed tomorrow

Abbott and Costello?

Laurel and Hardy?

Fritz and "Ditz" (LaNeve)?

Josh and... no, even Josh says that Pontiac will be killed

Oh I get it, GM will make the announcement about Pontiac getting killed on the day after tomorrow

EDIT: update, 11:45pm Sunday...

"GM to announce brand changes, restructuring moves" by TOM KRISHER

DETROIT (AP) — The storied Pontiac brand is dead and more car factories and jobs are about to disappear — the latest casualties of a massive restructuring plan that GM is counting on to help it stave off bankruptcy protection. The struggling automaker will announce details of its plan at 9 a.m. EDT Monday as it makes an offer to its bondholders to swap debt for company stock . . . Two people briefed on GM's plan confirmed that it includes the demise of Trans Am sports car brand Pontiac, 83 years after the first Pontiac car was introduced . . . efforts in the last few years to market Pontiac as performance-oriented brand failed . . ."

Edited April 27, 200916 yr by wildcat

Abbott and Costello?

Laurel and Hardy?

Fritz and "Ditz" (LaNeve)?

Josh and... no, even Josh says that Pontiac will be killed

Oh I get it, GM will make the announcement about Pontiac getting killed on the day after tomorrow

Could be but, really no GM brands are safe at this point. Maybe Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Abbott and Costello?

Laurel and Hardy?

Fritz and "Ditz" (LaNeve)?

Josh and... no, even Josh says that Pontiac will be killed

Oh I get it, GM will make the announcement about Pontiac getting killed on the day after tomorrow

Easy there, klondyke.

No need to be disrespectful.

These guys have been involved with GM for a very long time, and I respect what they have to say.

So, as I said, just take it for what it's worth. They don't believe that Pontiac will be killed tomorrow.

Please read the update I inserted at 11:45pm into my post above.

I think I'll just wait for the announcement, thanks.

I've had enough news stories.

Please read the update I inserted at 11:45pm into my post above.

Post or no post, we have heard nothing for sure. I trust Camino so you never know. Having said that I am prepared for the worst. Once again without Pontiac I fear Buick and GMC could get axed as well. (In the US that is.)

I think I'll just wait for the announcement, thanks.

I've had enough news stories.

I've read the last few pages of this thread and ... wow. It's all went a step wayyyyy too far.

I'm very embittered by the recent news, but I'm not literally chanting to the sky for blood.

I've read the last few pages of this thread and ... wow. It's all went a step wayyyyy too far.

I'm very embittered by the recent news, but I'm not literally chanting to the sky for blood.

I am pretty close, if you couldn't tell. My next new car might not be GM. I said might. Even for me that is a huge thing, but it will be domestic.

I think I'll just wait for the announcement, thanks.

I've had enough news stories.

1. click favorites

2. choose another site

Just sayin'...

My name's not klondyke, by the way.

Post or no post, we have heard nothing for sure. I trust Camino so you never know. Having said that I am prepared for the worst. Once again without Pontiac I fear Buick and GMC could get axed as well. (In the US that is.)

Don't count on anything.

Like I said before, I don't take what these two good folks say as gospel.

They are in a position to know, but that doesn't mean that they actually do.

As shaky as everything is right now, anything is possible.

Pontiac very well may die tomorrow.

But I do respect these guys, so I don't dismiss their assertions to the contrary.

... It would make it easier on Americans to get the cost of oil down, not make cars get better fuel mileage.

It would be easier on Americans, and the rest of the world, to make cars with better fuel mileage than to even attempt to get the cost of oil down.

Just how would you expect the cost to go *poof* half-price?

Don't count on anything.

Like I said before, I don't take what these two good folks say as gospel.

They are in a position to know, but that doesn't mean that they actually do.

As shaky as everything is right now, anything is possible.

Pontiac very well may die tomorrow.

But I do respect these guys, so I don't dismiss their assertions to the contrary.

I am going to go to bed now Camino. Hope for the best. On that and your positive (possibly correct) news I will go to bed. Pontiac could die, but the cars and legacy they made will last forever thankfully no government or anyone can take that away. Like it or not, Pontiac is an American nameplate that will live on in the hearts and minds of those who believed in everything it stood for... Big V8's, Bold Styling, and that signature Wide-Track!

Edited April 27, 200916 yr by gm4life

I am pretty close, if you couldn't tell. My next new car might not be GM. I said might. Even for me that is a huge thing, but it will be domestic.

Next summer's purchase will be a '77 to '78 Trans Am SE. I'm going to snap one of those up before the prices get too outrageous.

Then, when the time comes to finally buy a new car, a Mustang could very well be what I'll buy. I've already denied GM that luxury.

I've said all I need to say: a brand-new GM in my future will probably not happen. I won't bother fighting for them anymore, I'll just take my money and support a company who builds a product that I want, a company that gets it.

Maybe I might pick up one or two other used GM cars after the T/A SE. It's unlikely, however.

Edited April 27, 200916 yr by YellowJacket894

Pontiac is an American nameplate that will live on in the hearts and minds of those who believed in everything it stood for

There's a place inside me that will always hold good memories of Pontiac... and my personal favorites the Bonneville, Catalina, Grand Prix, Tempest, GTO, and, more recently, G8.

I did a little last minute checking around and reading between the lines...

It doesn't look good.

We'll know in less than eight hours.

Fair enough.

But what many here should realize is that Pontiac and its fate are very important to many here.

So expect passion and long discussion in threads such as this one.

While I mean absolutely no disrespect in saying this, especially to those enthusiasts of Pontiac, the many here you indicate as failing to realize that Pontiac and its fate are very important to many here do, in fact, realize this. The many also have a clear understanding of the reality of Pontiac. The jokes and quips regarding 'Excitement!!!', the power of rebadged Daewoos, Oprahs panty-wetting-free G6 fan car-club and the awe-inspiring FWD "Widetrack" W-Body all culminate to spell out the words we all knew was coming. Pontiac lost themselves decades ago and the results are hardly surprising. It's the relentless banter and crying foul time and time again that just baffles me. These are the passionate threads full of ideas and letter-writing campaigns that were needed twenty...fricken...years...ago!!! Not today!

Okay, I took a breath. I'm just saying that all of these passionate expressions of anger and frustration are terribly lost on me, and likely a few others here as well. While I won't say they're too little, too late... I will say that they were just not soon enough, if they would have ever mattered at all to those with the power to have changed anything at all. <-- To me, that's the saddest part of all of this.

The saddest part of all is yet to come, I'm afraid.

I know that I did my part, what more can be done?

We'll know in less than eight hours.

12:29am, The Detroit News, Monday, April 27, 2009

"Chrysler, UAW reach deal: Pact clears way for Fiat alliance; GM to offer bond exchange"

by Alisa Priddle and David Shepardson

" . . . [ GM ] also will lay out new details today of its revamped restructuring, including shuttering its Pontiac brand . . . "

Sad that absolutely nothing is to be gained by this.

no upside.

TICK-TOCK!

Do you REALLY think that LARGE RWD V8s will be ALLOWED by a liberal government in the future?

I think they will. While the politicians are publicly touting the green agenda, the fact is, they are rich, their friends are rich and their lobbyists are rich. These rich Hippocrates aren't buying 4 cylinder Cobalts. They buy the most powerful thing they can get... at minimum a V8.

If your going to outlaw/outregulate the V8, _all_ marques must be governed by it.

Where's Obama's presidential stretched, bullet-proof hypermiler Prius?