This is entirely off the top of my head, but after reading GM's not so "surprising" news (I've known it was coming for awhile now).

When you have college grads, Ivy leaguers and the like sitting on GM's board that did not see this coming when I did it's rather disheartening.

To put it blunt...would it be better for Kerorkian to rise up, demand changes at GM (I mean actually DEMAND changes) or would it be better for him to stay astray during GM's ever so mounting financial problems?

He should stand up, and demmand changes now. It is the right thing to do. It could only help

having a non-car guy demand changes in a car company is bad news

GM is contractually obligated to provide what it provides to it's employees at the moment.

Things are getting better. Look at all their new products that are out now. Perhaps everything new from the CTS on is being well received. Prior to the Cobalt, did any of you think that Chevy was going to actually be competitve in that market? Look at how well the Aveo is doing. GMT-900s, Reviewers saying that Toyota should watch out for the Lucerne, Cadillacs being compaired favorably to the likes of the M-series and AMGs. Impala being reviews as a serious Accord competitor, Solstice, Equinox doing well, Lacross that outsells both the cars it replaced. etc. etc. etc.

GM is definately moving in the right direction. BTW, GM stock has gone up 4 dollars a share in the past 5 days....

having a non-car guy demand changes in a car company is bad news

GM is contractually obligated to provide what it provides to it's employees at the moment. 

Things are getting better. Look at all their new products that are out now. Perhaps everything new from the CTS on is being well received. Prior to the Cobalt, did any of you think that Chevy was going to actually be competitve in that market? Look at how well the Aveo is doing. GMT-900s, Reviewers saying that Toyota should watch out for the Lucerne, Cadillacs being compaired favorably to the likes of the M-series and AMGs. Impala being reviews as a serious Accord competitor, Solstice, Equinox doing well, Lacross that outsells both the cars it replaced. etc. etc. etc.

GM is definately moving in the right direction. BTW, GM stock has gone up 4 dollars a share in the past 5 days....

Oldsmoboi..from what I understand, many of GM's "wowzers" at the media show are either being delayed years, or are not coming to market as promised.

With the exception of the '08 CTS and the new minivans (which the Chevy looks KILLER)..I've heard little about future product.

Epsilon II is full head on and has been since the media preview of future GM products, those of which that may not happen due to the constanty changing environment of GM.

Oldsmoboi..from what I understand, many of GM's "wowzers" at the media show are either being delayed years, or are not coming to market as promised.

With the exception of the '08 CTS and the new minivans (which the Chevy looks KILLER)..I've heard little about future product.

Epsilon II is full head on and has been since the media preview of future GM products, those of which that may not happen due to the constanty changing environment of GM.

I was only refering to currently selling product.

Oldsmoboi..from what I understand, many of GM's "wowzers" at the media show are either being delayed years, or are not coming to market as promised.

With the exception of the '08 CTS and the new minivans (which the Chevy looks KILLER)..I've heard little about future product.

Epsilon II is full head on and has been since the media preview of future GM products, those of which that may not happen due to the constanty changing environment of GM.

Don't you get it? Change comes slowly in this industry. If a platform were complete on a computer, from the moment the business case is made and it gets the go-ahead, it will take 4 years to come to market. Four years ago was 2002. Lutz had JUST gotten on board and debuted his Solstice concept. Now, here we are in 2006 and the products coming out that have been 100% Lutz so far have been pretty damn good. Why in the world would you want a non-car guy DEMANDING decisions that would effectively push GM's recovery back 4 more years? Are you working for Toyota now or something? Seriously.

I hate to be anti Kirk... but he said he's in it for the long term...

soo... that means that Kirk shouldnt harp to much, I think Lutz is doing a supurb job of getting product in line...

I think Kirk could harp at Bush or the UAW... but I think GM already knows what needs to be done...

Be careful what you wish for, you may not like the changes Kirkorian demands.

Don't you get it?  Change comes slowly in this industry.  If a platform were complete on a computer, from the moment the business case is made and it gets the go-ahead, it will take 4 years to come to market.  Four years ago was 2002.  Lutz had JUST gotten on board and debuted his Solstice concept.  Now, here we are in 2006 and the products coming out that have been 100% Lutz so far have been pretty damn good.  Why in the world would you want a non-car guy DEMANDING decisions that would effectively push GM's recovery back 4 more years?  Are you working for Toyota now or something?  Seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who has mentioned anything about Lutz? I dropped one name and one name only. That was Kerkorian. So, please do not try to make the case I am saying Lutz is the issue, never did I say that, nor imply that.

Your insane accusations that I may be working for Toyota are all the more dumbfounding. I mean, seriously. Hate to be the "Yes Man" of the world today when it comes to corporations but apparently you do not. I like to challenge the status quo and it's good to shake things up a bit. That does not mean I work for Toyota lol. Simply asinine.

Now, onto the only real part of your post that deserves to be addressed. Do I know how this business works?

Well, lets see. I've lived in Detroit for 22 years. My grandfather retired from General Motors after 30+ years. My Uncle John retired from General Motors after 30+ years. I've witnessed my father achieve 30 years and is still going strong.

I've been to every auto show since the "I can remembers" as well as every autorama. I've been invited to GM media events to preview vehicles and test drive concepts.

I've seen stuff that's never been released nor revealed and have had discussions with the decision makers in this business. If this comes off as being cocky (which sometimes happens with me) then I apologize, but I'd say yes, I understand how this business works.

I also understand how corporations work.

Be careful what you wish for, you may not like the changes Kirkorian demands.

Quoted for emphasis.

This is entirely off the top of my head, but after reading GM's not so "surprising" news (I've known it was coming for awhile now).

When you have college grads, Ivy leaguers and the like sitting on GM's board that did not see this coming when I did it's rather disheartening.

To put it blunt...would it be better for Kerorkian to rise up, demand changes at GM (I mean actually DEMAND changes) or would it be better for him to stay astray during GM's ever so mounting financial problems?

Did not see it coming? Give me a break. GM has been warning about the perfect storm for years no. Read their SEC filings. Actuall read what Devine has been talking about since he replace Losh. GM has been pretty open about their problems if anyone actually took the time to listen. It was just a matter of time when it would hit.

The same goes for DPH and Ford. In DPHs first SEC File, I think it was in their first 10k, they stated their problems. .

Josh, what kind of changes do you think Kirk should demand?

I've seen stuff that's never been released nor revealed and have had discussions with the decision makers in this business. If this comes off as being cocky (which sometimes happens with me) then I apologize, but I'd say yes, I understand how this business works.

I also understand how corporations work.

LOL

Who has mentioned anything about Lutz? I dropped one name and one name only. That was Kerkorian. So, please do not try to make the case I am saying Lutz is the issue, never did I say that, nor imply that.

Your insane accusations that I may be working for Toyota are all the more dumbfounding. I mean, seriously. Hate to be the "Yes Man" of the world today when it comes to corporations but apparently you do not. I like to challenge the status quo and it's good to shake things up a bit. That does not mean I work for Toyota lol. Simply asinine.

Now, onto the only real part of your post that deserves to be addressed. Do I know how this business works?

Well, lets see. I've lived in Detroit for 22 years. My grandfather retired from General Motors after 30+ years. My Uncle John retired from General Motors after 30+ years. I've witnessed my father achieve 30 years and is still going strong.

I've been to every auto show since the "I can remembers" as well as every autorama. I've been invited to GM media events to preview vehicles and test drive concepts.

I've seen stuff that's never been released nor revealed and have had discussions with the decision makers in this business. If this comes off as being cocky (which sometimes happens with me) then I apologize, but I'd say yes, I understand how this business works.

I also understand how corporations work.

Where in the world did you get from my post that Lutz was an issue?? All I was saying was that Lutz hasn't even been given the full (minimum) 4 years to debut products, but what we HAVE seen so far is very encouraging. Now, my question to you is WHY in the world would you want Kerkorian to start DEMANDING changes?? Where is the logic in that? I fail to see it. That would be the Oldsmobile situation all over again: abandoning (most likely) a successful strategy because it didn't start working instantaneously.

The Toyota question was completely sarcastic, and obviously so. Do you REALLY think I would be of the opinion that after this site and everything you would work for Toyota? You're funny.

Cool, you live in Detroit? I guess that makes you an expert. See, I live in Indianapolis, so I'm like a total expert on Eli Lilly and the pharmaceutical industry as a whole. Wait a minute. No I'm not!

Your family were all UAW workers. You have a good grasp of factory conditions and the UAW, not GM as a corporation. Your posts show a gross lack of understanding of the biggest element/hurdle of this business: time. Things take time.

Guess what? I've been going to auto shows, dealer preview events, etc for as long as I can remember, too! But that only makes you an expert on product, how dealers function (maybe), and marketing (to a limited degree). There isn't anything to be learned at these events regarding corporations.

So you've had a conversation or two with various executives. So has Buick Man.

I've seen unreleased stuff too! I guess I'm qualified to run GM now, too

I also know how many other types of corporations work, but I fail to see how this is relevant since we are talking about the auto industry, in which all the players function more or less the same, just with varying degrees of leanness. No company has yet to completely reinvent the way this industry does business.

Edited January 28, 200620 yr by Croc

Kirk should crawl into the earth and becom fossil fuel. He is a dinosaur after all.

There should be a fifth option in the poll - None of the above. I don't think anyone can solve the current problems of GM (or Ford).

No they can be solved, all we have to do is get Michael J Fox and a Delorean, go back in time and make the domestics not build &#036;h&#33;ty cars. That would prevent them from being in this mess in the first place.

No they can be solved, all we have to do is get Michael J Fox and a Delorean, go back in time and make the domestics not build &#036;h&#33;ty cars.  That would prevent them from being in this mess in the first place.

And stop the insane UAW contracts when they still had the power to.

And stop the insane UAW contracts when they still had the power to.

Yep. Well, maybe if they had been in a better financial place throughout the 90's those contracts wouldn't seem as bad today. No, wait, they would. GM's problems are GM's fault. I guess saying thatmakes me a GM hater. Josh seems to know the ins-and-outs of the auto industry as well as Tom Cruise knows the history of psychology.

Josh seems to know the ins-and-outs of the auto industry as well as Tom Cruise knows the history of psychology.

Tom Cruise to Matt Lauer: Matt, you're being glib. I know the history of psychology. I've done the research, you haven't.

I laughed my ass off at the part of about drugs not helping people with depression, and also at Cruise looking like a complete moron.

I wanna see Lutz' minivans! I am not gonna call for change until I see all the Lambdas and judge them in person.

Yeah, when is the public due to see any of these amazing vehicles? And can anybody give a general idea what these are? Are they cars? Trucks? Minivans? SUVs? Crossovers? New segments that haven't been invented yet?

Did you not think the Enclave was amazing? Remember it is replacing the Rendevous.

Careful what you wish for, GM could be forced to cancel C&G's favorite brands and cars.

You think anything Kirk would say - righteous or not - would really make any difference? You think Kirk knows anything about the industry?

Might as well send Buickman in...

I think you better take care on inviting this cat into the house. He can and would make changes just to make a buck not just save GM.

If he could make more money splitting the company up he would do it in a heart beat.

Once his pocket is full he will have no care for what is left!

But again it's just buisness.

Did you not think the Enclave was amazing? 

Not really, but even if it were, too many people in this country refuse to go anywhere near a GM dealership. The O.C. has explained why in many of his posts. That is one reason (the legacy costs are the other) why I don't think anyone can solve GM's current problems.

having a non-car guy demand changes in a car company is bad news

Then why are there so many working in the Executive ranks at GM?

Kirkorian may be the only person in the game right now who has the guts to take on GM's biggest problems, from a business standpoint, at least (Lutz is doing quite well with making more desirable cars). Wagoner and the rest of the gang seem to have this attitude that, "Well, if we leave things alone and deliever a lot of long-winded speeches about how GM is back on track, it will get better eventually...". I think that Kirkorian would demand action, which, for better or worse, is a lot more productive than sitting on your multi-million dollar executive *** all day like Wagoner does. So, I say, give him a chance. Heck, if he keeps buying more GM shares, we may not have a choice...

If the Rendezvous lowered Buick's average age by as much as it did while being a thoroughly mediocre (though quite likeable) product, the Enclave will be a success.

The only thing keeping people away from GM dealerships is inadequate product.

I think that Kirkorian would demand action, which, for better or worse, is a lot more productive than sitting on your multi-million dollar executive *** all day like Wagoner does.

What makes you think Wagoner does that?

I think Kirk should really shut up and keep at doing what's he's been doing best when Mr. T-Rex had a full house: poker chips and casinos.

Kirk knows nothing of cars. Hell, you don't have to understand how to run a corporation or know psychology to see that. He's another unwanted beancounter setting his rich, old, wrinkly ass in a chair at GM HQ.

And, I'll openly admit this here, he is right about SAAB. It should go. GM will just end up losing money when they sully the name and build them in Germany, or so the rumor says. I mean, Oldsmobile probably sold more cars in the '90s than SAAB does today. However, HUMMER should stay. It serves a niche market, which although it is shrinking somewhat, and it could be profitable if GM keeps growing the brand like it has.

If Kirk becomes too much of a problem, I'd just give him what he came for and shut him up. And what does he want? GMAC. It's actually more profitable than GM itself and you can see that crooked old Kekorian has his crooked old eyes on it.

And, why not, send Wagoner on his way too sometime soon. I can't stand how he runs GM, let alone look at his lemon-sucking, smug grin in a mugshot.

So what could be done anyhow ? Sell off assets ? We've seen that before, then when the selling is done and everyone at the top had their pockets padded we have another ghost town. America is littered with them. Maybe this "kirk" needs to have a talk with this other guy named "georgie poo", maybe they can figure out how people living in this country under the American economy, can "compete" with that other economy......you know...... the "global" one.

wall street antics is what has gotten this country to the current state of a mostly non productive consumer nation, they like it that way, its a machine that can not be stopped, its all about selling off assets and closing shop, why should the American auto industry be any different ? Just larger and taking longer to take down. they've just about got everyone used to the idea.

If product changes what ever the problems are, I will be surprised. I think the problems are far more deeply rooted than the product and folklore surrounding the product, past and present. No matter what GM does or comes up with "new" the following week it is trumped by the low wage countries. I dont see where its that hard to read the writting on the wall. I just go on with hope because what else is there ?

Kirk... Buickman... Josh... Tom Cruise... It all makes sense now.

Anyways, I still don't like Kirk. I cannot see anything good resulting of him. That and I agree with Croc, the product is just now getting good and the best is yet to come. I doubted Lutz at first, but I had not seen the best. The Enclave was the first vehicle to make me realize that. And now the news of a line of small RWD cars... Perfect. Why risk f**king something up by bringing Kirk into this?

Kirk... Buickman... Josh... Tom Cruise... It all makes sense now.

Anyways, I still don't like Kirk. I cannot see anything good resulting of him. That and I agree with Croc, the product is just now getting good and the best is yet to come. I doubted Lutz at first, but I had not seen the best. The Enclave was the first vehicle to make me realize that. And now the news of a line of small RWD cars... Perfect. Why risk f**king something up by bringing Kirk into this?

Exactly. The Aura looks to be done right, the zeta-lite(whatever its called now) cars are back on track, theres talk of a line of RWD small cars, GM has finally shown it can make interiors right with the GMT-900s, the next Malibu is supposed to be amazing, along with the next CTS, the Lambda's will probably be huge hits, GM may produce the Camaro again and it will be a hit. I wouldn't mess with it. Kirk will just have to sit back and watch his stock value go up. Maybe that was his intention all along?

So...has anyone come up with any brilliant ideas as to how Kirk can save GM? Hello?

So...has anyone come up with any brilliant ideas as to how Kirk can save GM?  Hello?

See the problem is Kirk probably has no plan to save GM. However he probably has a plan on how he could split the company up and sell off major parts to make himself a more wealthy man than he already is.

The problem relying on Kirk to come up with a plan is well.. KIRK. Hes not there for GM's best interest, he is there for the almighty dollar he thinks he can swindle out of them.

Maybe Kirk is re-trying his original Chrysler idea now that GM's share prices are so low? Lutz claims it was intended as an LBO at the time...

That's the direction he took with the former Chrysler Corp. In December 1994, at the urging of Kerkorian and in response to its sagging stock price, Chrysler boosted its quarterly dividend 60% and authorized a $1-billion stock buyback, which enriched shareholders.

Four months later, Kerkorian launched his hostile, ultimately unsuccessful, $22.8-billion attempt to take over Chrysler.

Lutz, who at the time was president of Chrysler, Thursday said Kerkorian had intended it as a friendly offer and thought he had the support of chairman Bob Eaton for a management-led leveraged buyout (LBO).

As it turned out, after Eaton told Kerkorian he would take his offer to the board of directors for consideration, the board decided to actively fight the overture.

"The Chrysler takeover attempt, if you look at it, was based purely on a misunderstanding," Lutz said. "He thought he was doing a friendly LBO ... and it turned out to be hostile."

Original C&G thread

Direct URL: http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...?showtopic=1741

That's enough for me, I think Wagoner and his team of bean counters have to go and replaced by more dynamic people. A change is needed at the head of GM. Even York seem to know more about the business than the current people.

Thos guys are killing the products with their decision ( pushrod V6, cheap interior for example) I'm so tired. It has to be done this year.

But I would keep Lutz.

That's enough for me, I think Wagoner and his team of bean counters have to go and replaced by more dynamic people. A change is needed at the head of GM. Even York seem to know more about the business than the current people.

Thos guys are killing the products with their decision ( pushrod V6, cheap interior for example) I'm so tired. It has to be done this year.

But I would keep Lutz.

Yeah your right Wagner doesn't know what he is doing. He just went and hired Bob Lutz to get the approval process cut down to size, get global platforms standardized, and interior quality up. He also kicked up budgets for platform spending, materials costs, and has introduced new marketing strategies (unifying Buick, Pontiac, and GM into one full line). In addition he has refined the 'homeroom' priciple so that regional expertice is being tapped into (see Holden for RWD programs and GME for Compact FWD cars). He also has hand picked Ed Welburn to get the NA design team's on the right track. So despite the fact that he, himself wasn't the guy to get things done he HAS gotten those guys to GM and he has done a great job of that.

I think Rick, like president Clinton, will be remembered as doing a good job but with a few stains on his reputation, Fiat being the big one.