I've been carefully considering Bob Lutz's recent comments on Zeta and the GTO. What follows is part fact and part opinion. But it's my take.

I've doublechecked several sources over the past couple of days, and as of yet, there is simply NO indication that Pontiac's G8 and GTO programs have been restarted, since their cancellations over a year ago.

So what are these GTO comments really about? My opinion, the "Camaro Effect". Lutz saw how absolutely fervent, Camaro enthusiasts were about their car. That's me and you bub. He was able to effectively direct our intensity - in order to bludgeon bloody - the GM decision making process, until they finally acquiesced to a new Camaro.

Right now, as it appears to me, GM has started to back away from some of the previous Zeta programs that were being worked on or considered. The aforementioned Pontiac GP replacement and GTO, Velite, even the 'sure thing' RWD Impala is taking sniper fire regarding the wisdom of going RWD.

Guess which side of the fence Bob sits on, regarding this matter? He's one of us.

Soooo......

Go to Geneva. Tell the press that the GTO is not only back on...it wasn't ever really that cancelled. Get everyone waiting/expecting/demanding it, get the buzz going and sit back and let the energy coalesce. It sure makes it tougher for the Board to not cough up these programs now...or at least that's what I think.

Geeze, brilliant!

__________________

I've been carefully considering Bob Lutz's recent comments on Zeta and the GTO. What follows is part fact and part opinion. But it's my take.

I've doublechecked several sources over the past couple of days, and as of yet, there is simply NO indication that Pontiac's G8 and GTO programs have been restarted, since their cancellations over a year ago.

So what are these GTO comments really about? My opinion, the "Camaro Effect". Lutz saw how absolutely fervent, Camaro enthusiasts were about their car. That's me and you bub. He was able to effectively direct our intensity - in order to bludgeon bloody - the GM decision making process, until they finally acquiesced to a new Camaro.

Right now, as it appears to me, GM has started to back away from some of the previous Zeta programs that were being worked on or considered. The aforementioned Pontiac GP replacement and GTO, Velite, even the 'sure thing' RWD Impala is taking sniper fire regarding the wisdom of going RWD.

Guess which side of the fence Bob sits on, regarding this matter? He's one of us.

Soooo......

Go to Geneva. Tell the press that the GTO is not only back on...it wasn't ever really that cancelled.    Get everyone waiting/expecting/demanding it, get the buzz going and sit back and let the energy coalesce. It sure makes it tougher for the Board to not cough up these programs now...or at least that's what I think.

Geeze, brilliant!

__________________

Interesting take on things . I don't see the situation with Zeta/GTO/Camaro the same way as you do, but your idea about the "Camaro effect" is thought provoking.

But if that were the case, wouldn't Mr. Lutz be setting himself up for a reprimand from Mr. Wagoner and/or the Board?

But if that were the case, wouldn't Mr. Lutz be setting himself up for a reprimand from Mr. Wagoner and/or the Board?

I'd doubt it.

I'd doubt it.

I wouldn't. A top position who lies blatantly would surely get a reprimand.

I wouldn't.  A top position who lies blatantly would surely get a reprimand.

It depends on what you call a blatant lie..more like having a clear agenda, I'd say.

Lutz is trying to do the right thing for GM. Some have started to get cold feet on some of these RWD programs. My opinion is that this is Lutz's way of getting some momentum going again.

If someone were confident in his own position...would he be willing to blow some political capitol on creating some energy? Sure, I could see it happening.

Edited March 3, 200620 yr by Chazman

Interesting take on things, but I think it's quite possible Holden has quitely been doing work on the GTO all along.

Interesting take on things, but I think it's quite possible Holden has quitely been doing work on the GTO all along.

I suppose it's concievable. But I'll tell you something, it would have the be EXTREMELY quiet work, since no one who would be working on such a program knows anything about it.

Well I think you will find out soon enough that there are many things going on in the land of OZ and we will soon see the fruits of ther labors.

Also even someone as high up as B Lutz would not stick his neck so far out to say that the RWD GTO , Camaro, Impala, Monte Carlo and Buick Statesman are all coming in the neart future and then have the press or internet find he was not being truthfull.

Just think what Wall Street would do to GM for such a statemet if proven false.

Lutz would not let everything in his lifetime of work in the auto field all come down to being remebered for making such a false statement. Just too little to gain and too much too lose.

Lutz would not let everything in his lifetime of work in the auto field all come down to being remebered for making such a false statement. Just too little to gain and too much too lose.

False? Hardly. I think of it as advancing the ball.

If someone were confident in his own position...would he be willing to blow some political capitol on creating some energy? Sure, I could see it happening.

This is the great core of your argument. [aside from your own fact checking with the programs] I can see him taking this kind of a position with the media, no problem. To accomplish the ends of guaranteeing some exciting RWD products for the media and enthusiasts to create the buzz and for the public to enjoy. I guess we'll all find out soon enough regardless, but good input to this whole sorted affair.

I do not think Lutz would be lying, more like holding upper management and the board's feet to the fire.

I've been carefully considering Bob Lutz's recent comments on Zeta and the GTO. What follows is part fact and part opinion. But it's my take.

I've doublechecked several sources over the past couple of days, and as of yet, there is simply NO indication that Pontiac's G8 and GTO programs have been restarted, since their cancellations over a year ago.

Yes, but did those sources mention anything about the Impala? How about the Monte Carlo? Statesman? I'm not reading anything that proves that those are canceled. And, anyway, think maybe those sources were told to be tightlipped on the subject? (And just who or what are your sources, anyway?)

So what are these GTO comments really about? My opinion, the "Camaro Effect". Lutz saw how absolutely fervent, Camaro enthusiasts were about their car. That's me and you bub. He was able to effectively direct our intensity - in order to bludgeon bloody - the GM decision making process, until they finally acquiesced to a new Camaro.

Right now, as it appears to me, GM has started to back away from some of the previous Zeta programs that were being worked on or considered. The aforementioned Pontiac GP replacement and GTO, Velite, even the 'sure thing' RWD Impala is taking sniper fire regarding the wisdom of going RWD.

Guess which side of the fence Bob sits on, regarding this matter? He's one of us.

Soooo......

Go to Geneva. Tell the press that the GTO is not only back on...it wasn't ever really that cancelled.    Get everyone waiting/expecting/demanding it, get the buzz going and sit back and let the energy coalesce. It sure makes it tougher for the Board to not cough up these programs now...or at least that's what I think.

Geeze, brilliant!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm... Interesting theory, nevertheless. I don't think Lutz would take a hike to Geneva for a few weeks just to lie to the press and end up falling face first into the fire he started. Nope, this simply isn't a case of "hey, lets lie to get the ball rolling again", its a case of letting everyone know to "keep patient, good cars are on their way...and they'll be what you and everyone else wanted for a few years now."

Yes, but did those sources mention anything about the Impala? How about the Monte Carlo? Statesman? I'm not reading anything that proves that those are canceled. And, anyway, think maybe those sources were told to be tightlipped on the subject? (And just who or what are your sources, anyway?)

The Holden Statesman was always on. The Impala (and I really hope it's called Impala) is on as well. Don't know if there's going to be a Monte Carlo...nothing in the pipeline yet.

Hmmm... Interesting theory, nevertheless. I don't think Lutz would take a hike to Geneva for a few weeks just to lie to the press and end up falling face first into the fire he started. Nope, this simply isn't a case of "hey, lets lie to get the ball rolling again", its a case of letting everyone know to "keep patient, good cars are on their way...and they'll be what you and everyone else wanted for a few years now."

You've got your theory....I've got mine.

The Holden Statesman was always on.

Sorry, I meant to say Buick Statesman. My mistake.

You've got your theory....I've got mine. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, okay then.

Good god...

GM is dieing and the 'board is still completely clueless and seems to be getting dumber by the day.

Lutz can get away with anything, and rightfully so. He can get away with anything and producing anything exibit A) Pontiac Solstice without having fear of punishment.

Lutz has been around the business long enough to know how it works. Simply put, a vehicle does not get made in todays automotive era without a sheer enthusiasm from the on-line communities. It begins with us, it ends with us. No clinics are necessary, why do you think the Camaro or for that matter over 50% of GM's new vehicles do not get cliniced? Because a "leak here" and a "leak there" and GM knows what they should make.

That said, I fully expect the next line of Kappa/small cars to be worldwide (more so than Opel/Saturn) and feature many differen body styles.

I have the feeling and belief that Lutz wanted to do more with Kappa but couldn't because of boardroom drama. Remember, it was Wagoner himself that told BusinessWeek half of Lutz vehicles were canned (or something along those lines). He puts out instant classics & hits, so imagine what was shelved or not given the greenlight.

If he can convince York on new products as he has with SAAB & Hummer the 2009-2012 era is going to be a fun one, this time with a man at the helm that has the balls to make it happen.

Sorry, I meant to say Buick Statesman. My mistake.

Well, okay then.

Actually, I think that story was the first time I've the heard names Statesman and Buick stuck together. Perhaps it's a solid indication that Holden will be exporting them to NA for Buick, whether it's called Statesman or not.

Edited March 5, 200620 yr by Chazman

Lutz can get away with anything, and rightfully so. He can get away with anything and producing anything exibit A) Pontiac Solstice without having fear of punishment.

Lutz has been around the business long enough to know how it works. Simply put, a vehicle does not get made in todays automotive era without a sheer enthusiasm from the on-line communities. It begins with us, it ends with us. No clinics are necessary, why do you think the Camaro or for that matter over 50% of GM's new vehicles do not get cliniced? Because a "leak here" and a "leak there" and GM knows what they should make.

That said, I fully expect the next line of Kappa/small cars to be worldwide (more so than Opel/Saturn) and feature many differen body styles.

I have the feeling and belief that Lutz wanted to do more with Kappa but couldn't because of boardroom drama. Remember, it was Wagoner himself that told BusinessWeek half of Lutz vehicles were canned (or something along those lines). He puts out instant classics & hits, so imagine what was shelved or not given the greenlight.

If he can convince York on new products as he has with SAAB & Hummer the 2009-2012 era is going to be a fun one, this time with a man at the helm that has the balls to make it happen.

Fortunately for us, you haven't Josh because you have no idea who makes decisions and how those decisions are made. Please don't pretend to talk about something you don't know about, it just makes you look stupid.

Edited March 6, 200620 yr by AH-HA

Please, Joe. Just go back to wherever you have been.

Please, Joe. Just go back to wherever you have been.

Suck it Josh! You are nothing and never will be anything. Get over yourself. Oh BTW, at least GMI's upgrades having working links on the front page.

Edited March 6, 200620 yr by AH-HA

I want to share some real HOT Zeta news, but due to Josh's continued association with this site and serious lack of respect towards me, I won't. Sorry gang.

Here's an offer for all to see. My wallet is open to takeover C&G on one condition, no more of Josh.

Please, Joe. Just go back to wherever you have been.

please, for the sake of your site, respect the contribution these men have made, and respect their position in the industry. not knowing anything about you, i know the connections you've made have been thanks to this site, and a lot of its popularity is due to them. so for the love of God, don't be a fool, just respect and listen to what these men of position try to tell you.

Here's an offer for all to see. My wallet is open to takeover C&G on one condition, no more of Josh.

can we hold a petition for this?

can we hold a petition for this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

petitiononline.com sounds good doesnt it?

I am not going to have a pissing match with anybody regarding this web-site or myself.

You know, I don't post alot on this site but I come here several times a day everyday. For god sakes people this is the internet and all this back and forth about whose right and whose wrong is childish. What the hell are you guys? 8?

petitiononline.com sounds good doesnt it?

I am not going to have a pissing match with anybody regarding this web-site or myself.

I wouldn't like you to, but a lot of your antics prove otherwise. I don't mind you one bit Josh, and I just think you're a growing human being who is capable of making mistakes like all of us. The problem is you too often think too much of yourself because you've had a position on this website that some of us like, and the number of times you've put your foot in your mouth has caused me to do this a lot

see, i have nothing but good will for you, but as the "leader" or "writer" or "funder" or whatever you want to call it, of this website, you have a certain responsibility to represent it, and therefore its integrity is directly tied to you. if you want it to have a good rep, then you must represent yourself in that way. if not, then you will only bring harm to this community, i personally, like a lot. unfortunately, there is a lot of damage you have already caused, and continue to cause. watch disney's aladin, and learn a little more about honor, selflessness, and humility. :AH-HA_wink:

i'm not afraid to tell it like it is, please feel free to disagree with me.

Back to the topic at hand.

Luts is a professional and he has to answer not only to the board but also the shareholders.

A top member of management would never knowningly release bad information that could have a negative or positive effect on the company's share price.

Granted this is just regular car news but he knows that he has to maintain a certain level of honestly with the press unlike our politicians.

Pardon me for a second.

First of all, the vast majority of what we and every other site out there does is a form of 'armchair CEOing' with the differences lying in the amount of actual, factual information each of us are privy to. As long as one isn't trying to falsely pass it off as fact, there is no problem with it. When that line is crossed and speculation is branded as truth, that is a problem. Most of us know we had a problem with that. Retractions were written, apologies were made, and Josh stepped down because of that. All that still stands.

Second, - both of you - to duke it out with another member for whatever personal reasons is one thing (and really shouldn't even be here on the board), but to insult the site as a whole is another. Sorry, but the fact of the matter is no one person is this website. I am in charge of it as a whole, Z28 is the webmaster, Variance is in charge of news, Northie is in charge of concepts, and a whole bunch of others in the administration and membership make this place what it is. That said, and insult to the site is an insult to all of us. Alot of work goes into this place, much more than many of you see. I know for a fact Z has spent countless nights on this upgrade, Camino on the special design projects, and I myself on regular updates. So, if you want to cast aspersions on C&G because of your personal opinion about one member, you can take it somewhere else. Its not appreciated by any of the dedicated people who work on this place as a pure passion.

You can pick and choose who this is directed to. If you read that and feel offended, then you're likely one of those causing it.

Turbo is right. Deftones is right. And the childishness on >>>all<<< sides needs to stop.

I really wish we could all just get along again...