wtf? That looks incredible! Why cancel it? I'd buy that thing over any other compact any day.

GM has virtually guaranteed my next car will be a Mazda3. I would have been willing to wait for a redesigned ION but I have no interest in a rebadged Brazilian Vectra, Cobalt, or Forenza. I'd love to see the Astra brought here but by the time it arrives and I'm comfortable the dealer's maintenance department have things figured out it will be too late.

the current Brazilian Vectra is also based on the Astra platform. The Euro Astra is just a version of the old Astra with the Delta front subframe [correct me if I'm wrong]. Brazilian Vectra is really nice and comparable to the cancelled Ion in terms of design, and probably better than Delta for driving dynamics [there's a reason Opel decided not to use Delta on the new Astra].

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...?showtopic=1422

It looked great, and finally completely desirable, uncanny for a GM small car. I do think it would have been a little underwhelming by 2008 though. As it is, if this car were here today, its looks inside and out would put it at the head of its class in sales.

Aura needs that center stack design in a BAD way...

last few 'decades.' and you're 'hopeful' because of some 'bright spots'.  you are an optimist!!!

and, sadly, I'm there with you!

Nothing sad about it. The bright spots are obvious and fast becoming more numerous. I say decades because I had to live through the most awful time for all cars, the late '70s and all of the 80's. The bright spots were even harder to find then as most cars didn't even equal their 1970 counterparts in many ways. The '90s were a decade of bland, if capable, cars for the most part and now things have finally shifted toward unique and exciting design. GM will be just fine soon.

And maybe they realize that Saturn has gotten a good push with Aura,Sky,Outlook, and the upcoming Vue and that its time to work on and invest in Pontiac. A matter of priorities.

If that were the reason for this decision (which I doubt) it should have been made yrs ago, not at the 11th hr after they have dropped tons of $$ and time into the program then show it to journalists. GM definitely does not have extra cash to throw away to change change horses mid-stream. Poor decision planning like this is why they lost $10 BILLION last yr. It makes GM look bad you no matter which way you cut it. Come on GM get your ducks in a row!!

Um...that's NOT why they lost $10B...well, not the direct cause.

Aura needs that center stack design in a BAD way...

Still lacks piano-black finish though...

so we'll have a niche product like a Camaro and new GTO but no crucial small car / volume product for Saturn?

Edited April 19, 200619 yr by regfootball

so we'll have a niche product like a Camaro and new GTO but no crucial small car / volume product for Saturn?

So it appears. Says a lot about the decision making inside GM, doesn't it?

I think we'll have a competitive small Opel / Saturn soon enough, it's just that moving onto a globalised engineering process is going to create some phasing anamolies.

But GM will come out much stronger at the end of the process.

One thing for sure is most from C&G would never have bought the "new Ion", since it's not a 'real GM car'.

One thing for sure is most from C&G would never have bought the "new Ion", since it's not a 'real GM car'.

What do you mean by "not a real GM car"? It's designed by Opel and Opel is GM ever since the 1920s.

Opel has taken ownership of the current Delta platform, and future designs will be handled by them.

If fts not RWD/V8 with huge exterior dimensions and small interior dimensions with uber-cheap interior materials, its not a GM.

confirmation of possible shipments of opels to NA, nothing new here.

If fts not RWD/V8 with huge exterior dimensions and small interior dimensions with uber-cheap interior materials, its not a GM.

Your Solara came with its dose of T-brand Koolaid, and you're high on it.

Workers’ representatives in Germany have been pressuring GM to export Opel cars to the US to secure jobs and fill under-used capacity in German factories.

Of course at the expense of American Jobs. Unless Its written in the U.A.W contract in 07 Vehicle for Vehicle,Engine For Engine, Transmission for Transmission. Equal Exchange Both Ways then The U.A.W needs to vehemently oppose this. To the point Of Striking if needed. Unless its written The Talk of Exchange is B.S. And truly nothing more then Outsourcing U.A.W. jobs to Germany

Edited April 19, 200619 yr by Ghost Dog

Of course at the expense of American Jobs. Unless Its written in the U.A.W contract in 07 Vehicle for Vehicle,Engine For Engine, Transmission for Transmission. Equal Exchange Both Ways then The U.A.W needs to vehemently oppose this. To the point Of Striking if needed.  Unless its written The Talk of Exchange is B.S. And truly nothing more then Outsourcing U.A.W. jobs to Germany

GM is an international company with plants in many countries..they should be able to source their cars from any of their plants when it is cost-effective to sell in a particular market..the Aveo isn't made in the US, for example..

Wouldn't importing the car from Germany be even more expensive than making it here? German labor costs are rediculous and the Euro-USD exchange rate would slice profits even more. Sending the Brazilian-built Astra seems like a good idea though.

it would be ludicrous to build the car in germany and import it here. it won't happen. especially because GM could make the saturn compact a very high volume product easily, if the right car is designed of course, and that just wouldn't be feasible from germany. with all the excess capacity here, and the high exchange rates you've mentioned, it just wouldn't make sense.

Wouldn't importing the car from Germany be even more expensive than making it here? German labor costs are rediculous and the Euro-USD exchange rate would slice profits even more. Sending the Brazilian-built Astra seems like a good idea though.

Right..it probably wouldn't be cost-effective.. the exchange rate is part of why VW is having problems in the US, for example.

the exchange rate is part of why VW is having problems in the US, for example.

Is the Paso up relative to the dollar again?

Is the Paso up relative to the dollar again?

I was talking Euros... I think the only VW made in Mexico (Peso) and sold in the US is the Jetta...

GM is an international company with plants in many countries..they should be able to source their cars from any of their plants when it is cost-effective to sell in a particular market..the Aveo isn't made in the US, for example..

The Aveo should have Daewoo or Geo Badge on it. Not Chevy.It is a Daewoo thats just a Fact. Badging it as a Chevy really is A False advertisement.

Edited April 19, 200619 yr by Ghost Dog

The Aveo should have Daewoo or Geo Badge on it. Not Chevy.It is a Daewoo thats just a Fact. Badging it as a Chevy really is A False advertisement.

And when was the last time Chevy, Pontiac, or Buick engineered anything?

I thought so.

And when was the last time Chevy, Pontiac, or Buick engineered anything? 

I thought so.

Oh about 20 points of market share ago.

The Aveo should have Daewoo or Geo Badge on it. Not Chevy.It is a Daewoo thats just a Fact. Badging it as a Chevy really is A False advertisement.

So Chinese Buicks, all of Vauxhall, Pontiac GTO, middle east Luminas, they are all false advertisement? Do you propose we change them all to just be branded as GM?

So Chinese Buicks, all of Vauxhall, Pontiac GTO, middle east Luminas, they are all false advertisement? Do you propose we change them all to just be branded as GM?

A Holden should be a Holden,a Daewoo a Daewoo, and a Shanghai a Shanghai.

I was talking Euros... I think the only VW made in Mexico (Peso) and sold in the US is the Jetta...

I think that the Jetta, new Bettle, golf are all from Mexico or Brazil.

A Holden should be a Holden,a Daewoo a Daewoo, and a Shanghai a Shanghai.

So should a Rainer be a GMC, Chevy, or Oldsmobile?

A Rendevous should be a Pontiac.

Mini and Rolls Royce Phantom should be BMWs.

Things get really scary over at Ford.... is it a Ford, a Lincoln, a Volvo, or a Mazda?*

*Hint: Crown Victoria, Mustang/Thunderbird, Five Hundred, Fusion

A Holden should be a Holden,a Daewoo a Daewoo, and a Shanghai a Shanghai.

So what should Vauxhall be?

And GM cant sell Daewoos in the US.

They are all GMs, and should be badged to fit each specific market.

The rebadging I'm against, is things like the CSVs and G5.

I'm for whatever brings us better cars. Bring on the Monaros and Astras and all the other good cars GM makes overseas. It's all about the product.

Edited April 20, 200619 yr by CaddyXLR-V

so we'll have a niche product like a Camaro and new GTO but no crucial small car / volume product for Saturn?

Yeah, but what you're missing is that every division needs a halo car like the Sky, Corvette, GTO, XLR, SSR and Soltice because once people see how great these halo cars are sales of the halo car's division go up significantly ...

NOT

so we'll have a niche product like a Camaro and new GTO but no crucial small car / volume product for Saturn?

No, the next Astra will just be a Saturn as well. We may have to wait a little longer than if we got the GMNA designed one, but we'll get a better product and it will be a lot more economical for GM to produce as a result.

So what should Vauxhall be?

And GM cant sell Daewoos in the US.

They are all GMs, and should be badged to fit each specific market.

The rebadging I'm against, is things like the CSVs and G5.

I'm for whatever brings us better cars. Bring on the Monaros and Astras and all the other good cars GM makes overseas. It's all about the product.

Fine Just don't deceive the American public by Attaching U.S. Brand Names to them. If They Are Soooooooooo good they Should sell without misleading the public.

A Holden should be a Holden,a Daewoo a Daewoo, and a Shanghai a Shanghai.

- Say bye-bye to the GTO.

- GM Canada axed the Optra sedan for 2006. It's sister car is the Suzuki Forenza in the U.S. - why did they do it? Apprently it has been outselling the "vastly superior American product" that is the Cobalt

Face it, the global economy requires cross-brand sharing for the U.S. to remain competitive against the foreign makes.

Edited April 20, 200619 yr by ShadowDog

And GM doesn't need another sales channel, especially one by the Daewoo name. They will sell better as a Chevy. It's not like GM can make a profitable small car here. By your definition, the entire Lexus brand, until recently, would be false advertisement. I dont think it's the name your mad about, just where it's made. If those Daewoos were made by UAW workers and sold as a Chevy, would that be ok?

- GM Canada axed the Optra sedan for 2006.  It's sister car is the Suzuki Forenza in the U.S. - why did they do it?  Apprently it has been outselling the "vastly superior American product" that is the Cobalt

The Optra was axed because of the new Aveo. The price point of the Cobalt and the Aveo are pretty close. And previously there are rumours as the new Aveo comes along, there will be a Matiz taking where the Aveo used to be.

Also, the Optra was NOT better than the Cobalt. The 2.0L engine was horrendous, even when compared to the LN2 in my old. Cavalier. Engine was rough, and the smaller displacement engine lacked torque.

The Optra was axed because of the new Aveo. The price point of the Cobalt and the Aveo are pretty close. And previously there are rumours as the new Aveo comes along, there will be a Matiz taking where the Aveo used to be.

Also, the Optra was NOT better than the Cobalt. The 2.0L engine was horrendous, even when compared to the LN2 in my old. Cavalier. Engine was rough, and the smaller displacement engine lacked torque.

But they`re keeping the Optra5...so what sense does this make to drop just the sedan.

Isn't Aveo only initially offered as a sedan? At the shows it was shown as a sedan only...

From all I've read, the hatchback will be known as Aveo5, but without the sedan's updates. It's all in the 2007 order guide that's been posted.

I agree that the Forenza/Optra pales in comparison to the Cobalt. We sell both brands.

Okay, a lot of misinformation here. The Aveo is not priced anywhere near the Cobalt. If we are speaking strictly price here, the Aveo with automatic, a/c and Cd (not standard as on the Cobalt and Optra 5) has a MSRP of $15,710 including freight and air tax WARNING: CANADIAN PRICES

The Cobalt is $18,255 also including freight and air tax. The Optra 5 equipped the same way is $18, 025.

When the Optra sedan existed in Canada, it was a little cheaper but was confusingly priced so that you could not get a/c and automatic in the base vehicle, thus forcing the customer into a loaded vehicle that was priced a little higher than the Cobalt without all those toys.

There was too much overlap in size and target market between the Cobalt and Optra sedan. At least the Optra 5 and wagon are different enough that they won't directly compete with the Cobalt.

The Optra sedan (of which I am currently driving a 2005 model) has a quieter, smoother ride than the Cobalt. However, the engine is horrible. It is noisy when pressed and delivers AWFUL real world gas mileage with the AWFUL Aisin transmission. Overall, I like the Optra sedan (the interior has a much nicer look than the Cobalt, especially the seats!) but the tranny has to go. It shifts like a damned standard: lurching all around.

Clearly, GM didn't know quite what to do with the GM-DAT product when they got it. The Epica got slaughtered when the new Malibu (same size and much greater power/better gas mileage) came out at the same time. They are obviously still sorting things out.

The Aveo 5 is surprisingly big on the inside (I am 6'2" and have no problem sittign in the back or front of one) and it rides, handles decently, but again, the automatic is AWFUL and needs to be sorted out. It robs the engine of power and fuel mileage.

the current Brazilian Vectra is also based on the Astra platform. The Euro Astra is just a version of the old Astra with the Delta front subframe [correct me if I'm wrong]. Brazilian Vectra is really nice and comparable to the cancelled Ion in terms of design, and probably better than Delta for driving dynamics [there's a reason Opel decided not to use Delta on the new Astra].

OK. This stuff is making a little less sense everytime I read it.

The Vectra is an Epsilon car, Vauxhall, Opel, or Chevrolet.

It's midsize.

And it would make no sense to stretch an aging platform and put new skin over it.

Like the Saturn Aura is the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra is (should be?) the Chevrolet Vectra.

What is suggested here would be an economic suicide to execute. Too many variations, too many platforms, and differing models.

And GM doesn't need another sales channel, especially one by the Daewoo name. They will sell better as a Chevy. It's not like GM can make a profitable small car here. By your definition, the entire Lexus brand, until recently, would be false advertisement. I dont think it's the name your mad about, just where it's made. If those Daewoos were made by UAW workers and sold as a Chevy, would that be ok?

Why can't GM produce a smaller, profitable car in the U.S.? Hmm? If others can do it, then GM can to. I do seem to remember that the Neon was actually profitable for Chrysler (Check Allpar.com).

OK. This stuff is making a little less sense everytime I read it.

The Vectra is an Epsilon car, Vauxhall, Opel, or Chevrolet.

It's midsize.

And it would make no sense to stretch an aging platform and put new skin over it.

Like the Saturn Aura is the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra is (should be?) the Chevrolet Vectra.

What is suggested here would be an economic suicide to execute. Too many variations, too many platforms, and differing models.

As senseless as it may sound, that's the truth. The current Astra and brazilian Vectra do share platform. Brazilian Vectra is based in a stretched version of Astra's platform.

As senseless as it may sound, that's the truth. The current Astra and brazilian Vectra do share platform. Brazilian Vectra is based in a stretched version of Astra's platform.

And if I remember correctly, Griffon said that made it about the same size as the present ION.

Why can't GM produce a smaller, profitable car in the U.S.? Hmm? If others can do it, then GM can to. I do seem to remember that the Neon was actually profitable for Chrysler (Check Allpar.com).

Maybe the first couple of model years. But they sure wetre not making $$ on it the past 10 at least, with the huge rebates. And the cheapo equipment, like roll down rear windows, in a car with 'power windows'