If you aren’t losing money because the value holds / appreciates, you’re no fool.

1 hour ago, David said:

As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted and that goes especially true for EVs today.  

Interesting statement, coming from you.

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

If you aren’t losing money because the value holds / appreciates, you’re no fool.

Interesting statement, coming from you.

Yes, true, if no depreciation, then you're no fool. Course, I also do not think a person who buys something they like and holds onto it like you or myself that changes auto's every 10 to 15 years is a fool either as we truly get our use/value out of it.

On the other hand, a person swapping out auto's every 12 to 18 months could very well fall into that category.

The perception is what it is all about.

My Escalade is 15 years old and like new. SS is 13 years old and like new and my 1999 Durango is 22 years old and then I have my 1994 GMC SLE Suburban being 28 years old. So not sure I fall into the fool category either.  But still, it is an interesting statement from me.  

Not into the Royals.  However, you wake up and learn that Prince Philip has died.  RIP.  He and the queen seem like decent folks.

So, he made it to 99.  His 100th birthday would have been 2 months from now.  I was hoping he'd make it to 100(+).

For one, London, and England, would have probably partied in his honor.  Parties can be good.  Then, I always like to see centennial birthdays for people who have been going along at a steady pace well into their 90s.

 

https://youtu.be/y-jdvMU1EKo

6 minutes ago, ykX said:

 

 

This just proves as I have always believed that America can build superior race auto's when we want over the over rated Italian stuff.

15 minutes ago, David said:

This just proves as I have always believed that America can build superior race auto's when we want over the over rated Italian stuff.

I love Durango and would love to have either Hellcat or Jeep but you do realize at warmer temperatures Urus would probably win even in a straight line? And if there will be turns, like track or twisty road it will easily walk away from both of them.   Urus faster than most sports cars. 

Nevertheless, there is something infinitely cool about large three row SUV that is that fast.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

This basic roofline was "shared" with other GM brands BOP + C at about this time.  This was one of the better designs. My favorite one would have been the Pontiac fraternal twin.  That funky metallic coral color was fairly nifty and sometimes seen on these cars/brands.

Bottom line:  I painfully miss the larger American coupe.

^ '59-60 had (2) 2-door designs: the 2-dr sedan and the 2-dr hardtop. Not just a B-pillar added; the sedans had taller windshields by about 2", and more domed rooflines. 
As different as the Divisions were on everything else, the above-beltline greenhouses were shared across the board {for the most part). All 5 car Divisions got the 2-dr hardtop.
That's the same model/bodystyle my '59 is.

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Neat curvature to the front door uppers... interesting how these vintage ambulances always seemed to have unique, non-oem glass and rooflines.

As far as the '59-60 GM greenhouses, it's interesting that there didn't seem to be any distinction between B- and C-bodies for most of the rooflines, unlike '61 forward where there were distinctly different 2dr hts, 4dr hts, 4dr sedans, etc between B- and C-bodies. 

2 hours ago, ykX said:

I love Durango and would love to have either Hellcat or Jeep but you do realize at warmer temperatures Urus would probably win even in a straight line? And if there will be turns, like track or twisty road it will easily walk away from both of them.   Urus faster than most sports cars. 

Nevertheless, there is something infinitely cool about large three row SUV that is that fast.

The Urus is just an Audi Q8 in Lamboish sheetmetal, though...nothing special.  It lacks the true weirdness of the LM002...doesn't even have a Lambo engine--has an Audi engine. 

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

As far as the '59-60 GM greenhouses, it's interesting that there didn't seem to be any distinction between B- and C-bodies for most of the rooflines, unlike '61 forward where there were distinctly different 2dr hts, 4dr hts, 4dr sedans, etc between B- and C-bodies. 

I think they were pretty comparable. I think there was only 1 windshield in '61, so the differences in the 2-dr sedan & 2-dr hardtop was less than the prior generation. Where it expanded was '62, when Chevy had 2 different 2-dr hardtops, but only @ Chevy. 

A lot going on to make a generalization about here; would need to make a list. For example, I know Pontiac again had 2 different windshields by '63-64.

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I think they were pretty comparable. I think there was only 1 windshield in '61, so the differences in the 2-dr sedan & 2-dr hardtop was less than the prior generation. Where it expanded was '62, when Chevy had 2 different 2-dr hardtops, but only @ Chevy. 

A lot going on to make a generalization about here; would need to make a list. For example, I know Pontiac again had 2 different windshields by '63-64.

An example would be the B hardtop rooflines vs C hardtop rooflines of a given year, like ‘61.  The C has a more squared C-pillar and back window shape compared to B.    Olds 88 vs 98 example...

 

Likewise for '62-64....the C body has a more squared off roofline compared to the rounded B body roofline.

 

 

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by Robert Hall

The interesting factoid is the difference between B- and C-body rooflines continued as far as I can tell across each generation, all the way to the end in '84...

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by Robert Hall

^ I know that was done @ Olds. 
But '63-64 Pontiac did not have different 2-dr hardtops from B to C.

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by balthazar

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ I know that was done @ Olds. 
But '63-64 Pontiac did not have different 2-dr hardtops from B to C.

Wasn't the Bonneville considered a LWB B-body?   I thought only Buick and Olds had both B- and C- bodies.  Then there was the Grand Ville in the 70s that had C-body style rooflines but was considered a B-body.

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by Robert Hall

They DID have a unique GP windshield/roofline vs. the Cat (both B-Bodies).
 

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

They DID have a unique GP windshield/roofline vs. the Cat (both B-Bodies).
 

Yes, as did the Olds Starfire.  There were always anomalies, like the Chevy Caprice/Impala Custom rooflines from the late 60s onward.  I'm talking standard B and standard C rooflines..applicable to 4dr sedans and 4dr hts also..the C- rooflines were more formal and squared.   This is without going down the rabbit hole w/ Hollander manuals, just from eyeballing over the years in person and in photos.

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by Robert Hall

Just now, Robert Hall said:

Wasn't the Bonneville considered a LWB B-body?   I thought only Buick and Olds had both B- and C- bodies.

I don't think there was such a thing (long WB B-body). Pontiac in '63-64 had the same 3" difference in wheelbase between the Cat & Bonne ('junior & senior' full-size) as Buick did in '59. Bonneville has to be a C-Body... but I'm not 100% sure.

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I don't think there was such a thing (long WB B-body). Pontiac in '63-64 had the same 3" difference in wheelbase between the Cat & Bonne ('junior & senior' full-size) as Buick did in '59. Bonneville has to be a C-Body... but I'm not 100% sure.

Pontiac had two wheelbase for their B bodies for many years, but I've never seen the longer wheelbase referred to as a C-body..pretty sure it's considered a LWB B.   The Catalinas and Bonnevilles seemed to always have the B-body rooflines for 2drs, 4drs, sedans and hts, never the C-body roofline except for the Grand Ville.

Though in reality, was there really a meaningful difference between a B- and C- body besides wheelbase and roofline?  

Anyway, fun stuff to geek out about..  the B vs C roofline difference even continued in the FWD era, w/ the H vs C bodies from the late 80s through the 90s..

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by Robert Hall

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Though in reality, is there really a meaningful difference between a B- and C- body besides wheelbase and roofline?

That would be it, I believe.
What are the 133" WB Fleetwood Broughams of the (for example) circa 1970?
Fleetwood Series 75 limos were D-Bodies...

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

That would be it, I believe.
What are the 133" WB Fleetwood Broughams of the (for example) circa 1970?
Fleetwood Series 75 limos were D-Bodies...

Another anomaly, a LWB C-body.   I like how the '71-72 Fleetwood Sixty Specials had the funky exposed B-pillar between the doors.  According to the Book of Knowledge, the Sixty Specials are C-bodies... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Sixty_Special

Edited April 9, 20214 yr by Robert Hall

As a random aside, wouldn't it have been cool if they had made a 2dr on the Fleetwood 75 wheelbase....long deck or longer hood...

^ reminds me of this 'chop I did; would LOVE it to drive around in. Love short nose / long deck cars. 

5 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

An example would be the B hardtop rooflines vs C hardtop rooflines of a given year, like ‘61.  The C has a more squared C-pillar and back window shape compared to B.    Olds 88 vs 98 example...

 

Likewise for '62-64....the C body has a more squared off roofline compared to the rounded B body roofline.

 

 

I like the first 2 more so than the last 2.  Those were svelte lines coming from fairly chunkier cars during the preceding decade.

I did not know that the 88 and 98 were that closely related at one time.  By the '70s, the difference between the two, and all their relatives, was noticeable enough (wb, trim, etc.)

A couple of things:

I think it's great how some Northern and East Central Europeans (HU, CZ, etc.) love some of our larger American cars.  I've seen quite a few photos and videos of the colonnades over there with their license plates on them.

"Speaking" of 454s and 455s, I found this:

Because it's a convertible, the interior is vinyl. The 455's engine paint is in nice condition and it has the Pontiac specific air cleaner decal.  The exhaust note could be nicer.  (They sure were when they were newer.)  Look at how small an adult looks in this video compared to the overall car.

I preferred the coupe, and with cloth seats.    I will never forget when, one November,  I went to Yosemite with my parents - where it was cool, comfortable, and not crowded - and there was a forest green metallic Bonneville coupe with a pale green landau roof, a pale green cloth interior, and the Pontiac sport wheels.  That car was a dream.

 

@trinacriabobSomething like this one?

1978 Pontiac Bonneville | Legendary Motors - Classic Cars, Muscle Cars, Hot Rods & Antique Cars - Beverly, MA (legendarymotorsllc.com)

Lovely car, already sold though, a ton of great pics at the link above.

Salina KS ~ 

Edited April 10, 20214 yr by balthazar

Ouch......didn’t realize this was going to ache this much.....at least it is the only issue!

Probably going to see a slew of these 'Pandemic Projects' emerge over the next few years.
I mean; I can only assume stark isolation / no contact with the outside world produced this build... 

^ That is hilarious...obviously the product of a warped mind..that 'deck' looks decorative, don't see any ramps or tie downs to actually haul a vehicle...

10 hours ago, David said:

@trinacriabobSomething like this one?

1978 Pontiac Bonneville | Legendary Motors - Classic Cars, Muscle Cars, Hot Rods & Antique Cars - Beverly, MA (legendarymotorsllc.com)

Lovely car, already sold though, a ton of great pics at the link above.

@David This would be the slightly downsized '77-'78-'79 coupe roofline.

The one I saw at Yosemite was either a '75 or '76.

Yes, similar to the landau roof and interior color.  Those wheels, but not color keyed.  The exterior was a dark metallic green.  Also, being the larger predecessor, there was a crease at the top of the fender, not to mention slight "fins" in the back to wrap the horizontal lamps around.  And, in that fender top crease would rest the lower edge and molding for the landau roof, which looked great, rather than terminating on a more slabby side.

The above has a true blue Pontiac V8 - a 400.  These would have had 403s (by Olds) slotted into them for Calif.  But these downsized ones could, and did, run with 350s, 301s ...

Today, these would be considered "very large" cars.  I think the '75 and '76 would be considered "enormous" cars.

It would be great to get behind the wheel of a large V8 powered RWD American car just to see how different it feels after driving FWD - rack and pinion - McPherson struts for so long.

 

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Salina KS ~ 

Yep, that's a fine looking Pontiac at the left. That would be the body style of the one I saw.

Let's see, going around the semicircle from the left: add Hornet, Cordoba, Monza, Rabbit, Regal (or lower cost Century), Nova, and Elite.

Today's birthday directory / announcement says it's Sixty8panther's birthday!  One of the more colorful personalities who is / has been on the C&G forum.  I hope he's doing well.

For sale here.

 

https://greensboro.craigslist.org/cto/d/greensboro-1967-pontiac-gto/7304963595.html

10 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

the slightly downsized '77-'78-'79

They lost around a foot & a half in length and 1000 lbs; pretty ‘big’ downsize!

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

They lost around a foot & a half in length and 1000 lbs; pretty ‘big’ downsize!

They still weighed quite a bit, so they must have weighed a helluva lot before the downsize.

The downsize was obviously enough for 250 inline 6s to pull Impalas, 231 V6s to pull LeSabres, and 260 V8s to pull Eighty-Eights, though maybe not in that initial year. 

I've only ridden in the "post downsize" ones so I don't know if they kept the ride quality of the land yacht GMs that came before them.

When the colonnades got downsized (A-body to G-body, I believe), the ride quality remained, but they felt lighter and more nimble.

A '77 Bonneville 2-dr's listed weight was 3579.
A '76 Bonneville 2-dr's listed weight was 4308.
Not quite 1000 there.
But at Cadillac, the Deville lost 9" and the Brougham lost 12", with an average weight loss of 950 lbs.

In '75, the Catalina, Bonneville & Grand Ville engine choices were either the 455 or the 400.
Prior to that; '70-73, the Catalina base engine was the 355. (  )

22 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

The downsize was obviously enough for 250 inline 6s to pull Impalas

'77 Impala 4-dr listed weight was 3670.
'Obviously enough'... I dunno : 250/auto car did 0-60 in almost 17 secs (350 V8 car did it in 9.8 secs).

Feda Ford Standard Service Garage
Harmony MN ~ 

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

'77 Impala 4-dr listed weight was 3670.
'Obviously enough'... I dunno : 250/auto car did 0-60 in almost 17 secs (350 V8 car did it in 9.8 secs).

Well, it was to make them loss leaders and to make full-sizes accessible to a broader segment.  For one, I could hardly see the previous '76 Grandville Brougham sedan with a 6, or even a 4.3 V8.  That would be absurd.  I can only imagine where the temperature gauge would go when climbing the Grapevine on I-5, for example.

With the downsize, a 6 cylinder, together with a bench seat, blackwalls, and wheel covers, could put people who needed and wanted the roominess but didn't need the power behind a full size for less coin.  I'm thinking a retired lady in the flat parts of the interior who just needed to shop and go to church.  That is, for the most part, who bought the 6s and the 4.3 V8s in these cars.  The traveling salesman would go Brougham, larger engine, and all the power accessories.

Edit:  I am correcting myself.  Either a 229/231 V6 and a 250 I-6 was in fact available for all BOP + C entry-level grade full-sizes (Impala, Bonneville/Catalina(?), 88, LeSabre) in that initial 1977 model.

@David I forgot to mention the sticker shown for that Bonneville - $ 8,197.  Amazing.  And that's with an upcharge for the 400 V8 and the heavy duty alternator! Had they gone with a small block V8 and skipped the upgraded alternator, it would have come it at $ 7,9##.  Where do I sign ... for that same price?  Stat!

 

Edited April 11, 20214 yr by trinacriabob

As far as full sizers w/ 6 cylinders, I think the only '71-76 GM B-bodies with 6s would be the Chevy Biscayne/Bel Air in '71-73 (a 3spd manual was standard w/ the 6!),  and the '76 Buick Le Sabre had an available Buick V6.   That must have been quite the slug.

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

As far as full sizers w/ 6 cylinders, I think the only '71-76 GM B-bodies with 6s would be the Chevy Biscayne/Bel Air in '71-73 (a 3spd manual was standard w/ the 6!),  and the '76 Buick Le Sabre had an available Buick V6.   That must have been quite the slug.

I believe that about the early '70s full-size Chevys.  And, now that I think of it, I vaguely recall V6 front fender badging on a rare few LeSabres from that year - which would mean before being shrunken and while still "odd firing."  Boohoo to that sort of combination.  What were they smoking?  And, if CR commented on how slow the V6 was in the Century of that time, the word "slug" when fitted to the LeSabre would be an understatement!

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Those really scream 60s to me.....

^ Ahead of their time; ‘54, ‘56 & ‘58.

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

I saw this and immediately thought of this, and that I no longer opt to swim in salt water ...

8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Big thumbs up here.  I think that Pontiac could have definitely pulled off a great variant of the Corvette.  And that I'd rather we had a Firebird on the market today than a Camaro.  And that Buick should release the Trans Am-alike vehicle that has been mocked up since they won't be doing regular cars anymore.  Lots of "what ifs" here.

 

8 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Those really scream 60s to me.....

gogo dancers!     

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

 

Big thumbs up here.  I think that Pontiac could have definitely pulled off a great variant of the Corvette.  And that I'd rather we had a Firebird on the market today than a Camaro.  And that Buick should release the Trans Am-alike vehicle that has been mocked up since they won't be doing regular cars anymore.  Lots of "what ifs" here.

 

 

I heard a story about how corporate didnt want to jeopardize and cannibalize  Corvette sales and forced Pontiac to use Chevrolet's new F Platform that would house the Camaro.  Having two 2-seater sports cars would be a money losing preposition for both brands.  

And I think they would be right.  Although it would have been awesome to have seen it alive. But then again, the Firebird/Formula/Trans Am was quite the success and quite the exciting sports car itself.   

I would have loved to have seen a 2nd generation Fiero. I would have preferred that corporate would have NOT interfered with the Fiero's original engineering which is rumored that the Fiero was bean counted to extreme.  It would have been quite the machine itself and probably that would have meant the death for the Firebird itself.  But the Fiero had a sexiness (and potential performance) that the death of the Firebird would sting a lot less. Besides, a Fiero Trans Am with a LT1 or LS1 V8 could have been a thing...    Of course THAT could have been the death of the Corvette too, but an affordable mid-engined V8 supercar would have come from GM THAT much earlier...   

 

 

Edited April 12, 20214 yr by oldshurst442