Just now, Cmicasa the Great said:

The grill is just HUGE.  This is really the last time I thought the 7Series was a looker

 

I always liked the look of those.... my asshole brother who has been a lifelong Chevy/Pontiac/Ford/Mercury guy has a black '00 740i...neat car. 

Just now, Cmicasa the Great said:

Which brings up a valid question.. how old is Smk?

 

I don't want to start trolling or smack talking...but IIRC he is an adult.

Just now, Robert Hall said:

I always liked the look of those.... my asshole brother who has been a lifelong Chevy/Pontiac/Ford/Mercury guy has a black '00 740i...neat car. 

My neighbor had a similar car in white.

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I always liked the look of those.... my asshole brother who has been a lifelong Chevy/Pontiac/Ford/Mercury guy has a black '00 740i...neat car. 

Interesting enough my older brother had one back in 2000. He wasn't an asshole til he bought one. Then he had a bunch of issues with it and sold it in 2003 and got an Escalade. Was cool again mysteriously. Do German cars make good people into ASSHOLES? A debate for the ages

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by Cmicasa the Great

4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Interesting enough my older brother had one back in 2000. He wasn't an asshole til he bought one. Then he had a bunch of issues with it and sold it in 2003 and got an Escalade. Was cool again mysteriously. Do German cars make good people into ASSHOLES? A debate for the ages

Oh, it's not the car...my brother has been an asshole/felon/black sheep of the family for decades...I had a BMW M3 back in the 00s and I'm not an asshole. 

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by Robert Hall

What's crazy.. thinking back. He had wrecked his STS before getting the BMW.. And looking back on the interiors.. the STS to me seemed more luxury

I like STSes...my sister's current commuter car is a well worn '06 STS...it drives nicely, comfortable inside.  Her '00 DTS was nice also. 

16 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I like STSes...my sister's current commuter car is a well worn '06 STS...it drives nicely, comfortable inside.  Her '00 DTS was nice also. 

LOL.. my first Caddy was a Black '05 Cadillac STS 4.6L V8 320HP. Loved that car. 

My interior was exactly like this. 

 

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by Cmicasa the Great

Those horrible , giant, always-black, rubber steering wheels BMW stuck in everything, even when nothing else in the interior was black, just SCREAMED 'cheap'. It's like they got a container ship of them for a nickel a piece and they lasted 30 years.

49 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

In childish fashion.. "He started it." I mean seriously.. every comment by him is normally  accompanied by 0-60 times or something. We could be talking about Sprinter Vans vs Chevy Express vans and some how we'll be bathed in a debate on which was is best around the Nur' Ring

Well, I mean the faster the van the faster the man with a van can make his deliveries and the more deliveries the more money.  At least Jeremy Clarkson would see it that way.

42 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Interesting enough my older brother had one back in 2000. He wasn't an asshole til he bought one. Then he had a bunch of issues with it and sold it in 2003 and got an Escalade. Was cool again mysteriously. Do German cars make good people into ASSHOLES? A debate for the ages

We'll Germany did start two world wars and had plenty of asshole lemmings to follow the First and 3rd Reich. Then I digress and we are here to debate auto's.

I agree with @balthazar BMW must have signed a 50 year contract as even today they have those damn rubber black steering wheels in everything. ?‍♂️

49 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

The grill is just HUGE.  This is really the last time I thought the 7Series was a looker

 

That is the best looking BMW sedan ever made.

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That is the best looking BMW sedan ever made.

I like how slim the nostril grilles on those were...the new 7s grille is probably 3-4 times taller. 

41 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

What's crazy.. thinking back. He had wrecked his STS before getting the BMW.. And looking back on the interiors.. the STS to me seemed more luxury

Haven driven both those (540i) I do think the STS has better luxury, the BMW maybe a better grade of build quality and fit and finish.  The difference was in driving, that E39 5-series could run circles around an STS or Gen 2 Aurora.

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Haven driven both those (540i) I do think the STS has better luxury, the BMW maybe a better grade of build quality and fit and finish.  The difference was in driving, that E39 5-series could run circles around an STS or Gen 2 Aurora.

The E39s were really nice...a buddy in Denver had two used 540is in a row--both manuals. Drove one once, very nice car...handled great. 

49 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

What's crazy.. thinking back. He had wrecked his STS before getting the BMW.. And looking back on the interiors.. the STS to me seemed more luxury

There is some level of GM parity here, because that BMW interior just Screams Pontiac G6.

Just now, Robert Hall said:

The E39s were really nice...a buddy in Denver had two used 540is in a row--both manuals. Drove one once, very nice car...handled great. 

They did handle well. I almost bought a really clean one about a decade ago.

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Haven driven both those (540i) I do think the STS has better luxury, the BMW maybe a better grade of build quality and fit and finish.  The difference was in driving, that E39 5-series could run circles around an STS or Gen 2 Aurora.

And here I have to agree with you. However, since that time BMW has gone downhill IMHO and Cadillac has gone uphill.

30 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

LOL.. my first Caddy was a Black '05 Cadillac STS 4.6L V8 320HP. Loved that car. 

My interior was exactly like this. 

 

I always liked the rear end styling of that car, I think the rear still looks good today.  I thought the headlights were too rounded off and the front was a little off.  I liked the interior of that car at the time.  I test drove one that was 3 years old maybe and remember it being too floaty and I had an Aurora at the time , that was probably 6 years ago.  I drove an STS, gen 2 CTS, XF, MKZ, Genesis 4.6 and then an E350 and the E350 was way better so I bought an E550 without driving it figuring it has to be better than a 350.

9 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I like how slim the nostril grilles on those were...the new 7s grille is probably 3-4 times taller. 

IT's the one feature on the car people actually drop coin for, why not make it huge.

23 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Those horrible , giant, always-black, rubber steering wheels BMW stuck in everything, even when nothing else in the interior was black, just SCREAMED 'cheap'. It's like they got a container ship of them for a nickel a piece and they lasted 30 years.

Probably got a big shipment out of the former Yugoslavia during the fall, much like Newman’s shower head  dealer.  

53 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

LOL.. my first Caddy was a Black '05 Cadillac STS 4.6L V8 320HP. Loved that car. 

My interior was exactly like this. 

 

That was about the time Cadillac started to become a really hot brand again.

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

That was about the time Cadillac started to become a really hot brand again.

The BK messed up a great deal of the plan. GM is being too cautious right now IMO. In 2005 there was the Escalade, CTS, STS,  SRX, XLR, and DTS. We were waiting for the BTS(there was a BLS in Europe based off Saab 9-3), BRX, XLS/DT7 and Ultra V8 to replace Northstar. There was also talk of an "XLR-Mini" based on the Kappas (Sky and Solstice)

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

Maybe, but the '05 M5 wasn't "factory produced" that way. And Alpina is an aftermarket tuner. If Alpina is 'in', so is the '12 Hennessey CTS-V, which went 221 MPH.

You can buy an Alpina BMW that's factory(it's on BMW's website). As far as I know, Hennessy gets the car after you purchase it from Cadillac. Two different concepts here. Plus, Hennessy is a crook and good luck even getting the product you paid for. 

SInce when is a website, a "factory"?

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

• You stated "factory produced". Alpina modifies BMWs in their OWN garage, not in a BMW assembly plant. Where you physically buy it is irrelevant; it's not 'factory'.
• You stated the 7-series outsells the CT6 in the US. It didn't for the last calendar year, and it wasn't really close.

"Alpina works closely with BMW and their processes are integrated into BMW's production lines, thus Alpina is recognized by the German Ministry of Transportas an automobile manufacturer, in contrast to other performance specialists which are aftermarket tuners. For instance, the Alpina B7 is produced at the same assembly line in Dingolfing, Germany (BMW Plant Dingolfing), as BMW's own 7 Series. The B7's twin-turbo 4.4-litre V8 is assembled by hand at Alpina's facility in Buchloe, Germany, before being shipped to BMW for installation,"

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

And even most teenagers now could care less.

Yeah, they are too busy playing on their phones to care about cars.  Different world.

36 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Yeah, they are too busy playing on their phones to care about cars.  Different world.

And a sadder one at that....glad I grew up when I did.

41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"Alpina works closely with BMW and their processes are integrated into BMW's production lines, thus Alpina is recognized by the German Ministry of Transportas an automobile manufacturer, in contrast to other performance specialists which are aftermarket tuners. For instance, the Alpina B7 is produced at the same assembly line in Dingolfing, Germany (BMW Plant Dingolfing), as BMW's own 7 Series. The B7's twin-turbo 4.4-litre V8 is assembled by hand at Alpina's facility in Buchloe, Germany, before being shipped to BMW for installation,"

Thank you for the clarification. BMW has built a lot of fantastic cars through the decades...but given the styling excesses of the current gen, I pretty much consider current Gen BMW products to be power-plant donors for a more interesting vehicle.

47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You can buy an Alpina BMW that's factory(it's on BMW's website). As far as I know, Hennessy gets the car after you purchase it from Cadillac. Two different concepts here. Plus, Hennessy is a crook and good luck even getting the product you paid for. 

Hennessey is crooked as hell...

49 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

The BK messed up a great deal of the plan. GM is being too cautious right now IMO. In 2005 there was the Escalade, CTS, STS,  SRX, XLR, and DTS. We were waiting for the BTS(there was a BLS in Europe based off Saab 9-3), BRX, XLS/DT7 and Ultra V8 to replace Northstar. There was also talk of an "XLR-Mini" based on the Kappas (Sky and Solstice)

GM would be an entirely different company right now if the whole BK and market crash thin g haddn't happened.  A modern G8 to go head to head with BMW and Acura...hell yes, please.

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by A Horse With No Name

6 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

GM would be an entirely different company right now if the whole BK and market crash thin g haddn't happened.  A modern G8 to go head to head with BMW and Acura...hell yes, please.

Yes and no, It's tough to imagine them producing the same level of "meh" that they were and being successful. I think the BK, in the long run, very much helped them realize some things and that's why we have some great products today. They were complacent and the BK woke them up and got them out of it. 

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Yes and no, It's tough to imagine them producing the same level of "meh" that they were and being successful. I think the BK, in the long run, very much helped them realize some things and that's why we have some great products today. They were complacent and the BK woke them up and got them out of it. 

There was good and bad in it....I do wish Pontiac  was still around.

7 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

There was good and bad in it....I do wish Pontiac  was still around.

If they had unique products like they had w/ the G8 and Solstice... but not a rebadge filler brand.  

6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

If they had unique products like they had w/ the G8 and Solstice... but not a rebadge filler brand.  

Exactly. They never needed to build the G3.

Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

Exactly. They never needed to build the G3.

Or stuff like the Montana, Torrent, Vibe, etc---FWD redundant filler crap..

20 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Or stuff like the Montana, Torrent, Vibe, etc---FWD redundant filler crap..

Exactly. I think my anger at the Domestics is at them building this stuff...doing much better with Ford now that they seem to be getting out of that market.

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

And a sadder one at that....glad I grew up when I did.

Thank you for the clarification. BMW has built a lot of fantastic cars through the decades...but given the styling excesses of the current gen, I pretty much consider current Gen BMW products to be power-plant donors for a more interesting vehicle.

Hennessey is crooked as hell...

GM would be an entirely different company right now if the whole BK and market crash thin g haddn't happened.  A modern G8 to go head to head with BMW and Acura...hell yes, please.

GM has money now, they could build anything they want.  It is a matter of choice now not limited resources.

If only GM would build a New G8/SS sooner than later (and NOT just a Cadillac CT6!).  GM cannot just live on SUVs and crossovers alone!

56 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

If only GM would build a New G8/SS sooner than later (and NOT just a Cadillac CT6!).  GM cannot just live on SUVs and crossovers alone!

....hell...regarding the SS...they never marketed the last one. Unless you were a nerd from automotive forums you never knew the damn thing existed.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

GM has money now, they could build anything they want.  It is a matter of choice now not limited resources.

I am not saying GM is faultless...see above remarks....

People never understood why there was a 50k Malibu on the lots.. and walked right past it looking at the 25k Malibus. 

"MY GRILLE IS BIGGER THAN YOUR GRILLE"

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Or stuff like the Montana, Torrent, Vibe, etc---FWD redundant filler crap..

I was fine with the Vibe.

It was a cool little hatchback that was a pre-cursor to the  small hatch morphing into small CUV that we have today. 

This is the Vibe that should have been made as an option though

 

A Vibe GT-R as a concept to introduce the Vibe. 

Ram Air induction. 190 horsepower versus the 180 we got ...19 inch wheels, eibach suspension...on the concept. 

It should have been built and given to us as an option with  the supercharged ecotec that was in the Saturn Ion Red Line and the Cobalt SS.   A turbo version would be also viable.

This was in 2003. When Pontiac just lost its Firebird. A Vibe like that could have eased the pain a little bit for losing the Firebird.

Then the GTO came along. But Pontiac would have had two performance machines in the showroom instead of 1 obscure one. 

Chevy and Saturn got that supercharged ecotec...

Fine for Chevy, but Pontiac was the brand that built excitement. Saturn was just your different kind of company...

So just like that...

 

GM screws up two of their brands images...

 

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by oldshurst442

Vibe was just a Toyota Matrix...

16 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Vibe was just a Toyota Matrix...

Yes. 

With Corolla bones. 

But it was still a cool little hatch. Toyota or not. Pontiac sibling or not.

The tuner crowd took to them

 

The Vibe and Matrix were offered with AWD.

Now...remember, the Fast and The Furious movies are coming out at this time. Deep pride for Japanese performance on small hatches. 4 cylinders are being tuned like crazy...since the 1990s and in the early 2000s it was at a red hot peak. 

Pontiac has got a very tune-able ecotec at this time. Supercharged and turbo versions were offered on that engine. Tuners got 1000 horsepower with them. AWD was offered in the Vibe...

The Vibe, like you said...IS A TOYOTA...

The Fast and Furious movie star...IS A TOYOTA...

Pontiac missed out on that BIG TIME!!!

It gave us a very ricey yet very Fast and the Furiousy concept...

JapaneseSportCars.com it says on that pic

 

THAT is how Pontiac missed out...

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by oldshurst442

Ecotec was a GM engine, though.  Wouldn’t have been used in a Toyota.  And the Toyota in F&F was a straight 6 turbo RWD Supra, long way from a Corolla shitbox.  

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by Robert Hall

11 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Ecotec was a GM engine, though.  Wouldn’t have been used in a Toyota. 

Yeah...but coudnt GM just shoehorn the ecotec? NUMMI was a GM/Toyota plant. Joint venture and I do understand that fact . 

But surely GM could have made arrangements to get an ecotec under there somewhere. 

Ecotecs were not specialty engines.  They were the corporate 4 cylinder engine. Cheap to mass produce so GM could have showhorned the supercharged engine ANYWHERE...

I understand what that implies....MONEY...

But...this is why NOW we know why Pontiac is no longer with us and why all  Pontiac had in their showrooms were  FWD appliance filler redundancy...

PS: I couldnt care less what Toyota done or not.  

PSS: Toyota rode that wave though with THEIR Matrix through TRD...

Edited February 14, 20197 yr by oldshurst442

Anyway, not a Pontiacyota thread. Back to the original subject, the 2019 CTS-V.  Quite an impressive machine.  How will they top it with its replacement, presumably to be called the CT5-V? 

I take it you dont like the Matrix/Vibe

LOL

Listen, Pontiac was trying to be all Fast and the Furious back then BEFORE their even was Fast and the Furious.

Pontiac's versions of the Quad 4 were usually the ones with slightly more horspower ratings (an earthshattering 5 horsepower more...) and were the fastest in performance of all the FWD Quad 4 vehicles.  Including the Beretta GTZ or the Calais 442 or the Achieva Quad 4...The Pontiac Grand Am GTs with the Quad 4 were always the hottest versions. 

Oldsmobile and Pontiac understood the 4 cylinder tuner movement in the late 1980s and 1990s. But 'twas Pontiac that really tried to push the performance and excitement buttons on its cars. Pontiac was fast and the furious rice before anybody else was with their plastic cladding body panels and body kits in the mid to late 1980s. They were fast and the furious before they tried to be BMW...

So I get the reasons behind the Vibe. And I applaud it. Its just that they SHOULD have pushed the Fast and the Furious buttons a LOT harder like they did with the Pontiac Grand Am GT Quad 4 a decade earlier... 

Including offering a 220-250 horsepower AWD, RAm Air hood, plastic body cladding VIBE GT-R for the young Fast and The Furious rebels to buy it. 

Toyota did that through TRD for their Matrix, but I dont think an engine upgrade was involved. Just ricey parts. 

Pontiac though is famous for showhorning bigger, badder engines in their more tamer offerings...

Tempest to GTO anyone? 

 

OK...back to the Cadillac. I agree! 

Edited February 15, 20197 yr by oldshurst442

Hell is going on.. Pontiac needed to go. he only brand that GM killed that made sense to keep was Hummer and Saab.. and even that could have simply been a trim level of GMC like Denali or AT4 and a European arm to take over where Opel would eventually leave off. Pontiac was redundant. It had been since the 80s. Saturn was as well, It was for all intents Olds reincarnated. Hence the reason why GM's market share wasn't seriously eroded after their demise

Edited February 15, 20197 yr by Cmicasa the Great

5 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Hell is going on.. Pontiac needed to go. he only brand that GM killed that made sense to keep was Hummer and Saab.. and even that could have simply been a trim level of GMC like Denali or AT4 and a European arm to take over where Opel would eventually leave off. Pontiac was redundant. It had been since the 80s. Saturn was as well, It was for all intents Olds reincarnated. Hence the reason why GM's market share wasn't seriously eroded after their demise

I would have liked to have seen Pontiac stay as a specialty division. And they really effed up at getting rid of Hummer.

This CTS is what put Alpha in the map.

I'm not sure if GM can surpass this to be honest. The LT4 has an analog vibe in what is the digital divide. 

It has an umami, a secret flavour that isn't easy to replicate, even for Cadillac. Never before have style, performance, and luxury come together in the most American way possible.

For someone looking at the CT6-V... I must say. The CT6-V has a big boy badass. The CTS has a ace, the boss, the maximum killer...the hitman level of badass..to me that is. But the CT6-V might just offer more opulence and a more refined drive...

 

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Hell is going on.. Pontiac needed to go. he only brand that GM killed that made sense to keep was Hummer and Saab.. and even that could have simply been a trim level of GMC like Denali or AT4 and a European arm to take over where Opel would eventually leave off. Pontiac was redundant. It had been since the 80s. Saturn was as well, It was for all intents Olds reincarnated. Hence the reason why GM's market share wasn't seriously eroded after their demise

Hummer went because of sky-high gas prices driving Hummer into the ground.  Saab gave GM absolutely NOTHING.  Once Pontiac had no real reason for existence (G8 aside), that brand could disappear.  Same reason Oldsmobile was killed: falling sales and no real effort to fix it all AND too few resources to save any of them, let alone all of them.

 

As for the CTS-V and its successor, I do hope that Cadillac and GM actually learned to do the right things and pull customer away from BMW and Audi and MB.  THAT is the mandate.

The old model of two strong bookend brands (Chevy and Cadillac) and 4 (which grew to 7 w/ Saturn, Saab and Hummer) mid market filler brands was no longer working in the 00s.   Seems to be working better now with 2 filler brands, though there is still a lot of redundancy. 

Edited February 15, 20197 yr by Robert Hall

Back to Pontiac....a bit of EXCITEMENT for your Friday morning.

 

And there is even a Cadillac/Benz link here. I have a relative who runs a successful private investigation firm and drives a v12 Benz....the ct6V/CTS-V would be a whole lot more exciting in a chase than that Firebird.

9 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

This CTS is what put Alpha in the map.

I'm not sure if GM can surpass this to be honest. The LT4 has an analog vibe in what is the digital divide. 

It has an umami, a secret flavour that isn't easy to replicate, even for Cadillac. Never before have style, performance, and luxury come together in the most American way possible.

For someone looking at the CT6-V... I must say. The CT6-V has a big boy badass. The CTS has a ace, the boss, the maximum killer...the hitman level of badass..to me that is. But the CT6-V might just offer more opulence and a more refined drive...

 

I agree. The CTS and the CTS-V are simply put... magnificent examples of automobile. Everything about this car is fantastic. The looks, the interior, the handling, the engine, the reactions. I hope it translates over to the CT5 word for word and then a few more. The CT6 and CT6-V seem to actually take it further. When I had one recently, I won't lie and say I didn't miss my Horsies, but the rest of the car almost made me settle. Keep in mind I was down almost 300 ponies. If the Blackwing quells my need for the LT4, then I will say that Cadillac is going to have an absolute, back to back, GRAND SLAM on their hands.