32 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

An EV Vette would be cool to see down the road... will be interesting to see the kind of performance Tesla gets out of their new roadster..

The AMG One is mythical, I would think the Tesla Roadster is more likely to happen and be faster..

AMG One will be on roads in 2021, the car works, it hitting emissions that needs the work.  I think they’ll beat the Tesla roadster to market and beat it in a track.

11 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The AMG One might have been interesting 5 years ago, but now it would be just another hypercar.. Koenigseggegg is doing some really interesting things w/ ICE design. 

Yes!

A 3 cylinder.  No cams.  600 HP.  

Like you said. The AMG-One is soooooo 5 years ago.  An F1 engine in a road car...   Great idea...to link F1 racing and road cars.  Too bad it aint the 1990s anymore.  

 

 

6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I don't know if it will be the Z06 or the ZR1, but I'd love to see a street C8 with the wing and bodywork of the C8R...

Yeah. Me too. Although the Stingray C8 is the first base Corvette that I like and probably will prefer over the more  hi-po versions in a long time. 

 

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by oldshurst442

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Their RWD based models are superior to GMs FWD generics though. 

A matter of both opinion and preferences. And yet; still generics.

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

the car works, it hitting emissions that needs the work.

Then it doesnt work...

Emissions is the hard part...

And emissions for ICE is getting stricter and stricter. And this is a race engine...that has to be engineered to be 1000 plus horsepower, to meet the engineering specs promised, WITHOUT CHEATING THE EMISSIONS PART...which are getting stricter and stricter to which Mercedes coulndt meet when the emission regulations were  relatively lax...

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/20881603/daimler-dieselgate-mercedes-benz-emissions-cheating-fine

 

Quote

 

Daimler fined nearly $1 billion for selling cars that cheated emissions tests

At least 700,000 cars worldwide were designed to cheat

Mercedes-Benz parent company Daimler has been hit with an €870 million (roughly $960 million) fine as part of a settlement with German prosecutors over the automaker’s own diesel cheating scandal. The fine comes in at the lower end of what was expected earlier this year.

The news comes just about four years to the day after Volkswagen’s Dieselgate scandal was exposed by the Environmental Protection Agency and California’s Air Resources Board. Volkswagen’s massive emissions cheating scandal, which affected 11 million cars worldwide, kicked off several investigations and lawsuits that helped uncover similar efforts at automakers like Daimler to skirt regulations on diesel vehicles.

Germany’s motor authority found that some 280,000 Mercedes-Benz C-class and E-class vehicles had been outfitted with software that made them look cleaner than they were during testing, similar to the grift that Volkswagen had pulled (though on a smaller scale). That led to a wider recall of some 700,000 affected vehicles around the world last year. Daimler also had to recall 60,000 GLK SUVs for the same issue earlier this year. The extent of Daimler’s cheating is still unknown, as an investigation by the US Department of Justice and a class action lawsuit in New Jersey are still ongoing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by oldshurst442

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Yeah. Me too. Although the Stingray C8 is the first base Corvette that I like and probably will prefer over the more  hi-po versions in a long time.  

I'd be happy with a base C8 (maybe w/ the Z51 suspension option) in Zeus Bronze w/ full tan interior..

AMG One will happen, Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

Also the Tesla will be heavy,  the Corvette needs to lose a 1,000 lbs of weight and double the horsepower to even get close to an AMG One.  I don’t know where GM engineers find 1,000 lbs to cut out of a C8 when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

AMG One will happen, Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

Also the Tesla will be heavy,  the Corvette needs to lose a 1,000 lbs of weight and double the horsepower to even get close to an AMG One.  I don’t know where GM engineers find 1,000 lbs to cut out of a C8 when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

AMG One is DEAD, The web site implys that, MB does not talk about it and all links are dead that used to be active. They are cutting everywhere. Too late to the party, this is a product that never should have been to begin with. They should have focused on pure EV like Tesla.

@smk4565

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a30701551/mercedes-formula-1-exit-rumor-aston-martin-lawrence-stroll/

It will be interesting to see what happens in F1 this year...if the season does indeed start in May or get cancelled completely...

<sarcasm> They should just can cancel the rest of the season and give the championships to M-B and Hamilton, as that is the usual predictable result.. 

</sarcasm>

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by oldshurst442

33 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

It will be interesting to see what happens in F1 this year...if the season does indeed start in May or get cancelled completely...

<sarcasm> They should just can cancel the rest of the season and give the championships to M-B and Hamilton, as that is the usual predictable result.. 

</sarcasm>

F1 ICE should just be killed and focus purely on F1E. 

Looks at that shtty SL in the first pic 2 posts up; plastic fake side scoop with plastic 'strakes' across it. Generic.

Mercedes fans should be mad.

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by balthazar

39 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

@smk4565

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a30701551/mercedes-formula-1-exit-rumor-aston-martin-lawrence-stroll/

This tends to make me feel more solid about the death of AMG One and their exit from F1 racing as MB has HUGE FINES still to come in their Diesel emissions problem. Right now, I bet Diamlers board is looking at how to save money as they cut loses.

That means F1 is dead, AMG One is dead especially since they are having major emissions problems with regular auto's and the FAILED AMG ONE cannot meet emissions.

Here is one of many stories that show the Arab counteries are falling inline with Europe emissions and will be removing emission polluting autos from their roads.

https://www.constructionweekonline.com/article-49209-higher-emission-standards-reshaping-uae-vehicle-fleets

Days of ICE Hyper auto's is over especially when they cannot meet emissions.

2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

This tends to make me feel more solid about the death of AMG One and their exit from F1 racing as MB has HUGE FINES still to come in their Diesel emissions problem. Right now, I bet Diamlers board is looking at how to save money as they cut loses.

That means F1 is dead, AMG One is dead especially since they are having major emissions problems with regular auto's and the FAILED AMG ONE cannot meet emissions.

Here is one of many stories that show the Arab counteries are falling inline with Europe emissions and will be removing emission polluting autos from their roads.

https://www.constructionweekonline.com/article-49209-higher-emission-standards-reshaping-uae-vehicle-fleets

Days of ICE Hyper auto's is over especially when they cannot meet emissions.

Somebody tell ocnblu THIS IS WHY governments will mandate BEVs over ICE cars in the near future.

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Then it doesnt work...

Emissions is the hard part...

And emissions for ICE is getting stricter and stricter. And this is a race engine...that has to be engineered to be 1000 plus horsepower, to meet the engineering specs promised, WITHOUT CHEATING THE EMISSIONS PART...which are getting stricter and stricter to which Mercedes coulndt meet when the emission regulations were  relatively lax...

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/20881603/daimler-dieselgate-mercedes-benz-emissions-cheating-fine

 

 

 

 

 

The Corvette doesn’t meet the WLTP emissions standards that AMG One is trying to make.  AMG wants this car to be world compliant, not a regional player.

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

@smk4565

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a30701551/mercedes-formula-1-exit-rumor-aston-martin-lawrence-stroll/

That’s old news, Mercedes said they will be in F1 for years to come.  Toto said it and their CEO said it.  They signed a 10 year sponsorship deal in February with a new sponsor.  They are here to stay and if this season ever starts they are going to win title number 7, as preseason testing shows their car the fastest again and has dual axis steering that no one else has.

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette doesn’t meet the WLTP emissions standards that AMG One is trying to make.  AMG wants this car to be world compliant, not a regional player.

The Corvette is being sold in the HERE and NOW...

The Corvette has a platform that WILL support hybrid EV with ICE and only ICE AND could be used to go 100% BEV...

Tadge was being coy when being asked about future possible C8 platformed Vettes...but he hinted LOUDLY and  CLEARLY  that the car is compliant with GM's future with EVs and BEVs and that the  platform is engineered that way...

PLUS...

the AMG-ONE is 

DEAD DEAD DEAD

 

And quite frankly...it and Mercedes go to HELL HELL HELL for all I care...

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by oldshurst442

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

 

They haven’t used a supercharger in 10 years.  They went from 6.3 liter to 5.5 liter to 4.0 liters, and now they added mild hybrid system to the 4 liter V8 to help mileage and emissions.  And they did that in a 10 year span increasing power and fuel economy along the way.

31 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

Days of ICE Hyper auto's is over especially when they cannot meet emissions.

The Corvette and Camaro can’t meet emissions in Europe either.  Which also means they don’t pass in South Korea, India or Japan that also use WLTP.  
 

Why isn’t GM fixing that?

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette doesn’t meet the WLTP emissions standards that AMG One is trying to make.  AMG wants this car to be world compliant, not a regional player.

That’s old news, Mercedes said they will be in F1 for years to come.  Toto said it and their CEO said it.  They signed a 10 year sponsorship deal in February with a new sponsor.  They are here to stay and if this season ever starts they are going to win title number 7, as preseason testing shows their car the fastest again and has dual axis steering that no one else has.

Prove it with actual links and statements. Daimler web site and MB web site says NOTHING about signing new 10 year deal for F1. 

SHOW ME THE BEEF? ?

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That’s old news,

Are you buzzing?

Look at the date...

And stop trolling...   turbos and superchargers and big displacements are part of M-B. 

 

 

Quote

 

Wild Reports Suggest Mercedes Team Will Leave Formula 1 After 2020

Mercedes might reportedly end its dominant F1 effort, and Canadian billionaire Lawrence Stroll could take it over and turn it into an Aston Martin team.

BY CHRIS PERKINS

JAN 29, 2020

 

 

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette and Camaro can’t meet emissions in Europe either.  Which also means they don’t pass in South Korea, India or Japan that also use WLTP.  
 

Why isn’t GM fixing that?

Easy, they DO NOT plan to sell the auto there. The Camaro EV will be the global auto.

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette and Camaro can’t meet emissions in Europe either.  Which also means they don’t pass in South Korea, India or Japan that also use WLTP.  
 

Why isn’t GM fixing that?

Stop trolling...

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Easy, they DO NOT plan to sell the auto there. The Camaro EV will be the global auto.

Right. Mercedes isn’t selling in one country so they need to be all country compliant.  And AMG’s sales and product management head said in November 2019 that the One is “first priority at AMG”.  So it happening and the most important project they have.

16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Are you buzzing?

Look at the date...

And stop trolling...   turbos and superchargers and big displacements are part of M-B. 

 

 

 

“Wild Reports”  And again they don’t have a supercharger in 10 years, and AMG has cut displacement over 33% from the 6.3 V8 of a decade ago.  And all AMG 53’s are all mild hybrids and the 63’s are in the process of switching over, GLE and GLS already are.

On February 10, 2020 they signed a five year deal with Ineos ( I thought it was 10) and Mercedes committed to 5 more years of F1 and I don’t know if anyone else is committed that long.  
https://jalopnik.com/mercedes-benz-confirms-its-commitment-to-formula-one-in-1841585529

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by smk4565

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

“Wild Reports”

When on February 10, 2020 they sign a five year deal with Ineos ( I thought it was 10) and Mercedes committed to 5 more years of F1 and I don’t know if anyone else is committed that long.  
https://jalopnik.com/mercedes-benz-confirms-its-commitment-to-formula-one-in-1841585529

OK, lucky I found the link to a better covering of this.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-arrogant-f1-team-pushed-ineos-to-mercedes-for-multi-year-deal/

The weird part is that while I could only find the link you provided above and the one I found below. MB own web site has ZERO Coverage of this.

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/sports/

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/

Everything that is on either of these two sites is either out of date or if it is on 2020, just related to the most recent F1 races or news of race status. Nothing about a new long term deal or anything more current than a year plus old info on AMG One.

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Right. Mercedes isn’t selling in one country so they need to be all country compliant.  And AMG’s sales and product management head said in November 2019 that the One is “first priority at AMG”.  So it happening and the most important project they have.

MB has plenty of auto's they DO NOT sell here, NOT every auto MB makes is Global. So how is that any different than GM focusing on their two largest markets and not bothering with the others.

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

AMG One will happen, Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

Also the Tesla will be heavy,  the Corvette needs to lose a 1,000 lbs of weight and double the horsepower to even get close to an AMG One.  I don’t know where GM engineers find 1,000 lbs to cut out of a C8 when the only way they know how add power is displacement and superchargers which adds more weight.

What was the projected price of the AMG One?

 

Once you tell us that, then you will truly understand how absolutely insane it is to make the comparison you are making. I do know which car is actually real and will be on our roads en masse and I know which one is a now a figment of Daimler’s imagination right now.

And seriously? Have the last six pages of this been wasted on responding to SMKs endless hypotheticals and apples to oranges comparison? Seriously?

 

I am ashamed to have taken any part in this, quite honestly. 

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by surreal1272

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is going to be in Formula 1 another 10 years that they committed to, so the R&D is already there.

2021 regulations on spending money should REALLY shake things up. I'm really looking forward to a much more level playing field as it should be a much more competitive field. It'll be interesting to see how some of these young, great drivers fair when they actually get a car that's competitive. 

14 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

It will be interesting to see what happens in F1 this year...if the season does indeed start in May or get cancelled completely...

<sarcasm> They should just can cancel the rest of the season and give the championships to M-B and Hamilton, as that is the usual predictable result.. 

</sarcasm>

You're not wrong though. 2021 should be interesting as there will be an imposed spending limit and it should level out the field so the small teams can actually afford to put out a competitive car. 

13 hours ago, dfelt said:

F1 ICE should just be killed and focus purely on F1E. 

I mean, there are two separate organizations.. Just let them both do their own thing. 

13 hours ago, dfelt said:

Prove it with actual links and statements. Daimler web site and MB web site says NOTHING about signing new 10 year deal for F1. 

SHOW ME THE BEEF? ?

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/mercedes-f1-ineos-sponsorship

5 years, not 10 though. 

 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/mercedes-f1-ineos-sponsorship

5 years, not 10 though. 

 

Yet as I posted, Daimler and MB own corporate news site has NOTHING about this. One has to question if it really will happen when their own company web sites do not state this.

Questionable

@dfelt

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-f1-launch/mercedes-announces-principal-partnership-ineos/

15 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

MB has plenty of auto's they DO NOT sell here, NOT every auto MB makes is Global. So how is that any different than GM focusing on their two largest markets and not bothering with the others.

But the WLTP standards are tougher than US, so if the car passes in Europe it will pass here.  And most of what Mercedes doesn’t sell in the US is a diesel or a wagon.  Every model line is sold here, for cars anyway, not the commercial trucks and busses.

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

What was the projected price of the AMG One?

 

Once you tell us that, then you will truly understand how absolutely insane it is to make the comparison you are making. I do know which car is actually real and will be on our roads en masse and I know which one is a now a figment of Daimler’s imagination right now.

And seriously? Have the last six pages of this been wasted on responding to SMKs endless hypotheticals and apples to oranges comparison? Seriously?

 

I am ashamed to have taken any part in this, quite honestly. 

$3 million.

My original point was about Celestique costing more than a Porsche Taycan or more than an AMG GT63, perhaps more than a GT73 hybrid which will be on sale by then.  And that GM won’t allow Cadillac to make a sedan faster than a Corvette, even if GM engineers could figure out how to.  So Celestique won’t have performance of already a available product.  These leaves them with one option to win on luxury and have Bentley level interior but Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so how do they pull that off?

32 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yet as I posted, Daimler and MB own corporate news site has NOTHING about this. One has to question if it really will happen when their own company web sites do not state this.

Questionable

What's the company site you're speaking of? 

This is the Mercedes F1 team site.

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-f1-launch/mercedes-announces-principal-partnership-ineos/

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by ccap41

Something else you may(or may not because the dislike for the company) like:

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-03/mercedes-benz-sustainable-change-motorsport/

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Something else you may(or may not because the dislike for the company) like:

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-03/mercedes-benz-sustainable-change-motorsport/

 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

What's the company site you're speaking of? 

This is the Mercedes F1 team site.

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/2020-f1-launch/mercedes-announces-principal-partnership-ineos/

When looking at that site which I did post in response to SMK, I did not find that, so between the time I looked and you guys posting they must have added the info. Good to know they are invested at a shorter time. Glad they will continue to support F1. Thank you for posting as that is one of @smk4565 problems is running off the mouth with no valid links to back up his apple to orange comparisons.

36 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

When looking at that site which I did post in response to SMK, I did not find that, so between the time I looked and you guys posting they must have added the info. Good to know they are invested at a shorter time. Glad they will continue to support F1. Thank you for posting as that is one of @smk4565 problems is running off the mouth with no valid links to back up his apple to orange comparisons.

I think you must not have scrolled down far enough as it was announced in February. There was a button "load more" and it was down further. 

On 3/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, smk4565 said:

$3 million.

My original point was about Celestique costing more than a Porsche Taycan or more than an AMG GT63, perhaps more than a GT73 hybrid which will be on sale by then.  And that GM won’t allow Cadillac to make a sedan faster than a Corvette, even if GM engineers could figure out how to.  So Celestique won’t have performance of already a available product.  These leaves them with one option to win on luxury and have Bentley level interior but Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so how do they pull that off?

Again, everything you have said here is purely subjective and just pure trolling which led to six pages of pure waste because you still stand by the baseless assumptions you have made. Meanwhile, you wholesale deflect this very same criticisms when they are aimed at Daimler. And Benz doesn’t even have a Bentley level interior so why the hell does Cadillac need to? Again, a bunch of random apples to oranges comparison by you all because GM is laying out a plan that Daimler won’t even fully commit to, EVs. 

I'd like to see what justifies a $200,000 base price for a Cadillac.   When an Escalade starts at $75,000.  And in time we'll see what they build, unless they cancel it.

51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I'd like to see what justifies a $200,000 base price for a Cadillac.   When an Escalade starts at $75,000.  And in time we'll see what they build, unless they cancel it.

Same could be said for MB when they have crapy $30,000 FWD appliances. So what justifies the over amped, under delivered Maybach crap.

33 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Same could be said for MB when they have crapy $30,000 FWD appliances. So what justifies the over amped, under delivered Maybach crap.

The A-class has nothing to do with the S-class.  The S-class has been the best car in the world for decades, it justifies it's price.  And S-class Maybach sales were up 10% last year.   Cadillac is going into space they never went before, without any track record of winning in the lower segments.  

Cadillac could something quite straightforward; put their concept vehicles into production as is.
The Ciel exceeds a Bentley of the time with ease.

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The A-class has nothing to do with the S-class.  The S-class has been the best car in the world for decades, it justifies it's price.  And S-class Maybach sales were up 10% last year.   Cadillac is going into space they never went before, without any track record of winning in the lower segments.  

WOW, Clearly you are now wanting to say Cadillac has no history of building luxury barges before MB built an overpriced Maybach that now has FWD appliances as part of the family selling for $30,000.

Before you trash a brand, know the history.

Where was MB when Cadillac was selling these? NO WHERE

1934 Cadillac Aerodynamic Coupe — US$7,850 new, $147,000 inflation-adjusted

1930s Cadillac 452 V-16 — up to US$8,150 new, $153,000 inflation-adjusted

1941 Cadillac Custom Limousine ‘The Duchess’ — US$14,000 new, $240,000 inflation-adjusted

Cadillac was selling the worlds best luxury barges before MB even thought of selling anything equal to it! ?

I doubt Mercedes Benz was exporting any cars to the USA prior to the 1960s, so their best cars were all stuck in Germany.  It is not MB's fault Cadillac went downmarket with the original 1976 Seville, then came all of Cadillac's errors and MB/BMW took advantage in the 1980s.

11 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I doubt Mercedes Benz was exporting any cars to the USA prior to the 1960s, so their best cars were all stuck in Germany.  It is not MB's fault Cadillac went downmarket with the original 1976 Seville, then came all of Cadillac's errors and MB/BMW took advantage in the 1980s.

I agree with you and understand that, but SMK speaks as if Cadillac never did a high end 6 figure luxury car before and has no ability to do that. They have done it, they can do it again and we now have to wait to see if the Celestiq can live up to the price tag.

Especially since it is an EV sedan.

25 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I doubt Mercedes Benz was exporting any cars to the USA prior to the 1960s, so their best cars were all stuck in Germany.  It is not MB's fault Cadillac went downmarket with the original 1976 Seville, then came all of Cadillac's errors and MB/BMW took advantage in the 1980s.

MB started importing by '56-57. They partnered with Studebaker and used their dealerships for years and even advertised with the company. It was a long tough road, putting their cars in with Studebaker and instantly making them look 10 years older. When a mercedes S and a Studebaker Lark were on equal tiers...

But the Seville was an upmarket move, not down. Or if not up, at least a lateral.

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by balthazar

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

I agree with you and understand that, but SMK speaks as if Cadillac never did a high end 6 figure luxury car before and has no ability to do that. They have done it, they can do it again and we now have to wait to see if the Celestiq can live up to the price tag.

Especially since it is an EV sedan.

Well, nobody currently working at Cadillac was a part of those 30's-40's vehicles so there really isn't any proof they have the ability to do it, yet. 

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

WOW, Clearly you are now wanting to say Cadillac has no history of building luxury barges before MB built an overpriced Maybach that now has FWD appliances as part of the family selling for $30,000.

Before you trash a brand, know the history.

Where was MB when Cadillac was selling these? NO WHERE

1934 Cadillac Aerodynamic Coupe — US$7,850 new, $147,000 inflation-adjusted

1930s Cadillac 452 V-16 — up to US$8,150 new, $153,000 inflation-adjusted

1941 Cadillac Custom Limousine ‘The Duchess’ — US$14,000 new, $240,000 inflation-adjusted

Cadillac was selling the worlds best luxury barges before MB even thought of selling anything equal to it! ?

Mercedes made the 770 in the 1930s and they made the 540K Roadster with a 1936 price of $68,000 or $1.25 million in today’s money.  And one recently sold for $11.7 million at auction.

And I am saying that Cadillac’s recent history even going back to the Allante gives no confidence that they can do a $200k car.  Nothing about GM operates today suggests they would do low volume vanity projects when platform and parts bin share is the company mandate.  And nothing suggests the public wants to pay $200k for a Cadillac when the CT6 and CTS got cancelled because they didn’t sell.  And the CT5 is sub $37k now.

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by smk4565

Why is it 'legitimate' to have this bug-eyed sedan over $200K:

...but not this one? :

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by balthazar

One is real and one is a fantasy. 

Edited March 18, 20206 yr by ccap41

No- it's real all right. Just; not in production. But it certainly could be. Hence; Cadillac can compete in this price tier by putting their concept-caliber cars into production.