Z-06

Thanks gentlemen. If I was again looking on paper, VW reliability while not stellar is not something which would bother me. I know three folks in person who have had horribly reliable Passat (2) and a Golf. That makes me anxious. Besides that the VW dealer here really doesn't give me a good vibe. Nevertheless, I am planning to keep an open mind and at least go and test drive it.

Dear Patient, before I put you on other of your crazy pills, let us get this straight that Fiesta ST was brought by you in this thread by comparing it with base Mustang not me. And I gave you five reasons as to why Fiesta ST would be chosen in comparison with Mustang, which you thought was a straight forward choice. At least I did not comprehend in your post about Fiesta ST being compared to a larger FWD smaller vehicles. But then please enlighten me, where in that post you say so. I even didn't make reference to the Fiesta ST in my last response here, but you regurgitated it. You may think Fiesta is Spark competitor, but numbers and magazines say otherwise. Ford may have not packaged its interior better than its competitors, but it is packaged better in utility, COMPARED TO A MUSTANG to which you compared with in that post. Okay I will even agree with you that Fiesta sized vehicles should never be performance oriented. But then Ford has balls to at least make it so, even if it means selling 10 of them a month (see I agree with you here also). Where are GM's balls for Sonic, which according to you should have performance version? Given lack of debt from bankruptcy, flexibility of manufacturing it promised from reemerging since bankruptcy, and existence of similar vehicles in other markets GM should be able to make profits on cars with low volumes, unlike Ford, which still has debt to pay. Isn't that the precise reason why Sonic was moved to US? At least that's what GM croaked as to it being the first small car to be manufactured in US due to GM's manufacturing flexibility. As far as reading comprehension, "It is a true all rounder" or "It is a compromise of all and well rounded at everything segment of performance." is equivalent to "a car for everyone"? I don't think I am the one missing or ignoring. Also, The argument above would not have been made, if comment below was read carefully in one of my other posts, because the single major hole in that theory is none of those manufacturers offer ANY equivalent car in other market, unlike GM, which it does. Your Chevroletdes Benz comment just further solidifies how much you read around here. May be you should own one of the FWD tri-star because based on your post, it seems like you really want one (clarification for your comprehension - assumption here is there's no sarcasm in that post). Given GM already has OPC, GTC versions and the necessary power train along with car platforms are geared to be world platforms, the cost of federalization is much lower than Toyota building a Corvette competitor, which it is BTW with BMW.

Perception is different than reality. Unless you have internal knowledge or concrete facts, you are just posting your opinion. Maybe... just can't say.... Point is you don't think the new camaro's tech is not going to rub off on other models? Can't dream of a twin turbo Cruze? What new tech? Most of the tech already exists and the small cars with performance exist. Bring one then we can talk.

Do it man. Life is too short to think too much. This and another one from Camino (It's just a wire or something like that) have been good threads about vehicle projects.

It's no back and forth buddy, I am a doctor to help you find the root cause of your ailment. I just need to diagnose you right before I can put my name on the prescription. Well, I am using your standards of your choice to dispute validity of arguments you are posing about superiority of Mustang. As Drew has said here, just look at the target demographics for these cars and their desires. With that let us bring the thread back to the subject. It is not ONLY PERFORMANCE but balance of performance, utility, fuel economy, fun to drive factors and value. Sure there is a 6/10 of a second sacrifice to 60 mph but it is not going to make someone loose sleep over. When Fiesta can go 10 to 20% farther even with a smaller tank of gas, while offering room for carrying weekend goods, fully loaded with features and carve the roads at the same time at may be 85% of the potential of a true RWD performance car costing more. It is able to park in the smallest of the parking lots in the city. That's why GTI is loved. It is a true all rounder for someone who doesn't need, want, afford or like all out performance. And that is the segment that GM doesn't compete in. And it is performance segment because you do not have base engines making anemic horsepowers and reaching your performance metric of 60 mph in 12 seconds. Just metrics are different my friend. It is a compromise of all and well rounded at everything segment of performance. If you don't like it fine, you have all out Camaro to go to. But where is a GM fan looking for above going to go to?

You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first. And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways.. Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet.... I never said that the sales will be sky high, hence my reference to reduced ROIC (Return of Invested Capital). And I never mention them to be halo cars. These cars are never intended to be sold at rate of 25,000 a month, but even at 2,500 to 3,000 a month that is additional 10% sales. GM always seems to look at 80-20, target the 80 and ignore the 20 and this my friend is no different. These cars are mainly for goodwill and keeping enthusiasts within the family while adding some profit and GM is horrible at retention. When is the right time, if not now? Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up. Given GM's size it will ALWAYS be working on updating models. GM was not ready with Cruze 6 years ago when it did not bring SS version (yes fully agree with bankruptcy) but nothing is preventing that now, I guess with this mentality it will never be ready. Nah, I'll think they'll be ready...I onl y have to look at the new Camaro to see where the future lies for cars like the Cruze. I think for the first time in a long time, we'll like what we'll see...... Perception is different than reality. Unless you have internal knowledge or concrete facts, you are just posting your opinion.

No.. my original "argument" was to the point of PERFORMANCE in these cars to dollars. Why would anyone wanting to purchase a performance car.. buy a Fiesta ST when the Mustang is only $1K more? Make your argument with the Focus ST and I would give U some credit.. but the Fiesta ST is not a real stepping stone IMO. The Focus ST actually offers relevant performance. I 'll stick with 0-60 times despite 0-60 being a metric I hate using when talking about performance. The Focus ST,.. 0-60 in 6.1 which is pretty close to Mustang times. The Fiesta ST??? 6.7seconds. The Chevy Volt is now a competitor. Road and Track and WTF am I arguing about Fiestas for??? I Feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills. LMFAO I don't see anywhere mention about performance. But fine I will give your metrics to argue of 0-60 mph. Honda Accord V6 and Camry V6 are faster than your performance oriented V-6 Mustang, Why should I buy the Mustang now, if Accord and Camry satisfy the other aspects, which a Mustang doesn't? You need more of your crazy pills.

Thanks Sir. That #1 and 4 had really had me scratching every part of my body to find answers. #2 I had seen it in an article that talked about wind tunnel testing, I just didn't know the name. But that was a long Sherlock-esque search. You should be proud.

I agree with knightfan, this is perhaps the most difficult one. My try - 1) Autobianchi A112 2) Schlörwagen or the pillbug 4) 1961 Seagrave

Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed? As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more: Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't. Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills. Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding? Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang. So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically . Well U only quoted part of my post. If U take the time to read what I wrote entirely then U will see that I was not saying that I didn't want them to build pocket rockets.. My post points out that I see WHY they have come to the decision not to in the near future. The part about the Fiesta vs the Mustang stands tho.. Has the car I picked been a Focus the your point would have been valid. There is very limited utility in a Fiesta. The Focus and Cruz? Yeah. I blatantly said the old Cobalt formula should be put in to place for the Cruze. Even the Sonic.. As it is slightly larger than the Fiesta... A car I see as more of girl car that anything else I was seeking clarifications regarding your point there. WHY GM thinks it doesn't need the pocket rockets cannot be logically proved from your statement of so called tiered performance approach that Chevy has but others lack. These cars are going to be bottom of the GM's so called performance steps approach anyways and will not be competing with cars you mentioned in GM's lineup. So GM's logic, if it's per your comment, is flawed. Your initial argument was, why would someone buy Fiesta ST over base Mustang for $1K more. I gave you multitude of reasons as to why one would do so. It seems like you believe the statement for utility is incorrect. Let's look at the numbers: the hatchback offers cargo volume of 10 feet3 (26 feet3 with rear seats folded) compared to 13 feet3 in the Mustang's dickie. So okay I will give that to you are correct about limited utility of the Fiesta, given smaller trunk volume. Although that statement assumes no one is ever going to use hatch's versatility of folding back seats and/or having extra set of doors. Mustang has none such option. But it seems like you have no comments on the rest of the points for Fiesta's superiority, so either you approve what I say or you ignore to point your correctness. As far as Focus ST is concerned, I am glad you didn't include in your comment, otherwise the statement would have made sense like smk's statements - Blatant superlatives with no numbers or solid premises to backup.

Yes and no. The GM 7-speed DCT is (1) Designed with and made in China by Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (上气集团）- GM partnership. (2) It is a dry clutch DCT, which is slightly more efficient and cheaper than a wet clutch DCT, but cannot handle high torque loads from high power engines suitable for the aforementioned applications. Thanks, I hadn't thought about the torque loads. I thought DCT were tougher than torque converter automatics on that front. Do you know what the max torque input of that transmission is? I think that DCT is designed for the specific use with the new three, four cylinder family, introduced in China. So it should not be more than 200 to 250 lb-ft.

Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed? As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more: Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't. Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills. Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding? Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang. So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically .

You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first. And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways.. Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet.... I never said that the sales will be sky high, hence my reference to reduced ROIC (Return of Invested Capital). And I never mention them to be halo cars. These cars are never intended to be sold at rate of 25,000 a month, but even at 2,500 to 3,000 a month that is additional 10% sales. GM always seems to look at 80-20, target the 80 and ignore the 20 and this my friend is no different. These cars are mainly for goodwill and keeping enthusiasts within the family while adding some profit and GM is horrible at retention. When is the right time, if not now? Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up. Given GM's size it will ALWAYS be working on updating models. GM was not ready with Cruze 6 years ago when it did not bring SS version (yes fully agree with bankruptcy) but nothing is preventing that now, I guess with this mentality it will never be ready.

Beaut. Gotta give credit to those GM engineers from down under.

Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized. Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package. When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.