ccap41

Yeah, I saw that too. I'm actually not sad about that anymore. When it first left us I was..but I honestly just don't care about the Viper anymore. At that price point there are just so many better choices out there that the Viper wouldn't even cross my mind if I was 100k car shopping. If it was priced closer to a regular Stingray(and went up from there) I think it would appeal more to me. At 100k though.. Not as if I would buy it if it were 60k but it just seems more like a 60-100k car(like the Vette) rather than a 90-120k car. Other than the heating issue the Vette has been plagued with what does the Viper do better than it? Make a few hot laps behind the wheel of a professional driver(which Randy Pobst doesn't even like)? That's about it and even then the Z06 would be on it's rear bumper. Interiors? Hands down Vette. I just don't know why anybody would buy a Viper in 2015 unless the sole reason was to have something somebody else doesn't have.

I've wanted to drive one of these little guys since hearing the first review and them raving about how much fun it is...and then every once after that. Good review.

I don't think there is one thing on that that doesn't look great. I als dig the Maserati front end with the way the grill sits in and the headlights. Even without the matte black they still give off a "mean" look.

You guys don't get the actual Renegade up there? Just the 500L? To me, the Renegade looks 10X better than the 500L. I think the 500 looks good but the L just looks like a bloated 500 but not in a good way.

^ Man, that Ram is attrocious to look at! I mean these are vans and 100% purpose built for work not for looks but good grief does it look bad. It is amazing that these vans were pushing 40k (I think 35-38, as tested) and there is nothing to them. Empty, large, vans , with the optional diesel motor yet turning close to 40k. That's a lot to swollow for a smaller business, I would think.

I'm outie on this one. Bouncing around from performance to price to engines to value per tenth to 60mph is absurd. 'Bong: The Camaro is the greatest car ever created. That's all you're looking to hear so there it is. Don't say I've never said it.

But elsewhere you were the guy complaining about the Camaro being overpriced for the driveline it offers. Do you really think that if the Shelby cannot decisively put a run-of-the-mill SS back on the truck that people will overlook it? And again, for possibly as much as an extra TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS? Sorry, man. That dog don't hunt. Yes, I still feel that a BASE Camaro SS starting north of 37,000 is high. In a straight line? or on a track, again? Because, I've mentioned this before, as cars get quicker and quicker one tenth of a second becomes a larger deal than it was 10 years ago. Cars can only accelerate to 60mph so fast(theoretically lets just say 1 second is the fastest POSSIBLE) so as they are slowly approaching that golden 1 second mark 0.1 is a larger and larger percentage of time. 0.1 for a car that goes to 60mph in 15 seconds is nothing. 0.6% of time. 0.1 off of a 4 second 60mph sprint is 2.5% of the time shed. Does this make sense where I'm going with this? It means that a 0.1 second win is more of an engineering feat today than that same victory 10 ears ago. So if it wins by 0.1 while a VERY marginal number so us average drivers it is actually a decent gap as cars are progressing and becoming quicker and quicker. Is 0.2 or 0.3 of a second worth 12k? Not to me. But let's flip that and say is 0.1 worth the gap from a Mustang GT to a Camaro SS? Heck, what's the Z/28 sprint to 60mph in? MT tested at 4.0 and 12.3 through the 1/4(You were ONLY looking at straight line numbers - but that car isn't about straight line speed, like the GT350). So let's look at those numbers again and put them into perspective.. Dollar:Performance:Want ratio and you can make an argument for all of them. I just think it is unnesessary to be as cocky as you are about two cars in which we don't have numbers on yet. I have yet to see a new 5.0 GT break 4.4 to 60. If you can find a credible link by all means post it. If the new SS even matches (instead of exceeds) GM's numbers, you're looking at 4/10 of a second to 60 alone. And in the real world, most of these cars will be on the high end of the price spectrum. In reality, the 5.0 would exist in a performance no man's-land between the V6 and V8 Chevies, and the small and big Hemis. If they price it out low, it'll probably move out of showrooms. But the bang for the buck is going to be critical. So you didn't really read anything I wrote or just ignored most of it.. 435hp and 455hp are awfully close to say one is in no man's land. I won't blame the engine for the speed deficite as much as the now dated trans.. I would assume it is the same from 2011 and the auto..well we know it's still the same damn 6spd from probably the '03-'04 Cobras(exaggerating but you know what I'm getting at). Chevy is working with what sounds like a great 8spd. I don't think the engine in the GT is the weak link if you're wanting to point to one.

So... You're saying the regular GT is performing where the GT350 will be? If you think that then yes, it's a huge waste of money. But if you realize the performance gains over the GT then you'll see where the dollars are coming from. They pumped up the performance from GT to GT350 and price also went up. Factual numbers? None yet. But that goes for you as well. The ones you got as "estimates".

But elsewhere you were the guy complaining about the Camaro being overpriced for the driveline it offers. Do you really think that if the Shelby cannot decisively put a run-of-the-mill SS back on the truck that people will overlook it? And again, for possibly as much as an extra TWELVE THOUSAND DOLLARS? Sorry, man. That dog don't hunt. Yes, I still feel that a BASE Camaro SS starting north of 37,000 is high. In a straight line? or on a track, again? Because, I've mentioned this before, as cars get quicker and quicker one tenth of a second becomes a larger deal than it was 10 years ago. Cars can only accelerate to 60mph so fast(theoretically lets just say 1 second is the fastest POSSIBLE) so as they are slowly approaching that golden 1 second mark 0.1 is a larger and larger percentage of time. 0.1 for a car that goes to 60mph in 15 seconds is nothing. 0.6% of time. 0.1 off of a 4 second 60mph sprint is 2.5% of the time shed. Does this make sense where I'm going with this? It means that a 0.1 second win is more of an engineering feat today than that same victory 10 ears ago. So if it wins by 0.1 while a VERY marginal number so us average drivers it is actually a decent gap as cars are progressing and becoming quicker and quicker. Is 0.2 or 0.3 of a second worth 12k? Not to me. But let's flip that and say is 0.1 worth the gap from a Mustang GT to a Camaro SS? Heck, what's the Z/28 sprint to 60mph in? MT tested at 4.0 and 12.3 through the 1/4(You were ONLY looking at straight line numbers - but that car isn't about straight line speed, like the GT350). So let's look at those numbers again and put them into perspective.. Dollar:Performance:Want ratio and you can make an argument for all of them. I just think it is unnesessary to be as cocky as you are about two cars in which we don't have numbers on yet.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But after driving the "much more powerful" Shelby on street and Laguna Seca, C/D estimated (no doubt via sneakiness and timing equipment) that it would hit 60 in 3.7-3.8 seconds (as you will see in the magazine, should you care to look). Similarly, they peg the quarter-mile times and traps at roughly Caddy ATS-V numbers. Thing is, the ATS-V's engine and driveline numbers (and the car's weight) are pretty similar for that of the Camaro SS... which is going to be lighter and torquier than the Shelby. Also, GM claims 0-60 in four flat for the eight-speed, and their numbers will probably be a bit conservative.Bottom Line: they may well be saying "ruh-roh" in Dearborn come Oct. 16 or so. And if not, perhaps they should be. So, are you looking at track times or straight line times? I think everybody and their brother know the GT350 is designed around a road course and not a drag strip. I'm kind of mind boggled by how you think an SS will compete or beat the GT350 in objective categories. Once they pump out a 1LE or some form of handling package, no doubt. It just isn't adding up the way they both stand today. The SS will be torquier which will give it great feel for driving daily but if you're $h!tin' n gettin' you're only utilizing that torque in first gear, after that you're sitting above 5-6000rpm and it means nothing as you're in your horsepower band.

Ha! I bet I got a lot more to look with the title rather than "Van Comparison test". Well, it is an unconventional test but there isn't much to read on these work horses that help suport our economy(s) more than we give them credit for. Ususally these just get one little instrumented test with one engine, usually the most powerful. Well, they brought us the diesel options for all three of the major players. They excluded the Nissan only because they don't have a diesel option. Well, here ya go! 2015 Ford Transit 150 Power Stroke vs. 2015 Mercedes-Benz Sprinter 2500 BlueTec vs.2014 Ram ProMaster 1500 EcoDiesel "We didn’t drive three full-size modern vans 430 miles just to gain admittance to the 43rd annual Van Nationals. We also drove them there (with a dorm room’s worth of furniture from IKEA) so we’d have a place to sleep away our drunkenness. Oh, right, and also to perform a comparison test of the newest big boys. After what seemed like a century of incremental improvements to the old-school American vans, our market is now awash with new European-derived big boxes, as well as little-sibling versions. We chose three of the new plus-size van-guard: the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter (now in its second generation here in the U.S.), the new-to-America Ford Transit, and a curious-looking thing called the Ram ProMaster. For the sake of intensified Euro-ness, we chose turbo-diesel engines as the exclusive power source.This choice effectively knocked Nissan’s NV2500 out of our test, since the company offers only gasoline V-6s and V-8s in its big hauler. Chevrolet has dropped its light-duty full-size Express van because it was dragging down the company’s fuel-economy average. Heavy-duty versions are still available, but the Express was deemed too out of step with the modern vans to include anyway. Advertisement - Continue reading below We specified windowless cargo versions of each entrant because they seemed somehow more in step with the custom vans we expected to encounter at the Nationals. Also, we weren’t running a shuttle service, and we didn’t want people looking through the windows at us as we snored. And then the Ford showed up with windows anyway. We chose low-roof models to diminish the commercial-van look (fat chance!), and no dualies or four-wheel-drive or super-extended models were allowed. The idea was to make them, as much as possible, candidates for modern van customizers. ..." http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/diesel-cargo-vans-compared-ford-transit-vs-mercedes-benz-sprinter-ram-promaster-comparison-test It was a weird read, imo. I was expecting more of a comparison like they do with cars and trucks. It seemed a little too broad yet it was still entertaining as there isn't much on these work horses. I also thought that 22-23mpg was pretty solid for these guys. It's basically doing truck work but not getting truck fuel economy. Also, I found it weird that the Ram had a 3.0 I4 when they have a 3.0 v6 already in house. Maybe just the displacement kind of threw me for a loop because they're both 3.0's.

Even if they run identical lap times on every track they get run on I don't think a single sole will worry about GT350 sales.

the only poblem is, he is not being nearly truthful hear. Most of the GM platforms are older than he lets on. The Impala for example, just hit a platform Buick has been using for a few years and before that was running a NINE year old design based on a platform more than 20 years. The Regal, 11-15 Cruze, were both based on platforms sold and designs sold in the rest of world for YEARS before they hit our shores. The Malibu, 13-15 was based on that older Regal platform. Alpha really is the only new car platform seen before 16. But look at what GM is pumping out NOW. They have a brand new Colorado/Canyon, '16 Cruze, '16 Malibu, Their half tons were done in '13..updated again for '16, '16 Camaro, CT6, XT5, Bolt, Volt.. What has Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, Jeep done in comparison? I mean I understand when you say those were on older platforms but everything I listed is no longer on those dated platforms and the Chrsler products still are and will be for some years yet. GM is no longer living under their bailout timeline and Chrysler is with too many of their products.

"Look at GM and Chrysler post bail out and GM is already to the point they have replaced most of their platforms with new platforms and are already into the second gen of refresh on some of theses models in the next one to two years. They even created a new Omega platform. Yet Chrysler is left with older and borrowed models. Even the RWD replacements were pushed back." I think this summed it all up VERY well. I know it put it into a different perspective to me. Thanks hyper.

..still look tougher than a Colorado..

Aren't split rims dangerous as F? It's a really neat thing to have though if I had a shop of my own. Vintage tools are cool.

Nah, I think I'm good on bottle openers for now. But seriously, what is that?

Nice pics, Stew! What were you doing out there? Looks like you got to put the off-road-ness of the trucks to work in that top pic. Looked fairly muddy.

Honestly.. I'd still take a Tacoma over a Colorado.. But a Canyon over a Tacoma. The Colorado's front end just looks too dang soft for my liking. The Tacoma and Canyon have muscular angles and grills whereas the Colorado is all soft from the end of the hood down to the plastic 3inches off the ground. I just wish I wouldn't have let my subscription run out so I could have read this by now!

That headlight.. That headlight..

Okay, so it is a different transmission then. That makes more sense... Thank you for the info, cp. Well, had it been the same trans, I think it should have debuted in a Cadillac and moved across the board from there. I don't think they should have delayed the others as much as putting the money up to get the Cadillacs done first(trickle down as opposed to trickle up and over). Of course they would use it in other applications but you'd think there wouldn't be a time when a Chevy has a superior transmission than premium, German fighting, Cadillacs. And there was that time period.

While it is great to spread the trans around the entire GM lineup as much as possible I'm still kind of confused why it didn't debut in a Cadillac. Are those CTS or ATS mpg numbers, cp?

GM and Ford haven't built anything like that though. So while any big company "CAN" these companies AREN'T.

That is a really interesting picture, you can see more of the divots in the background on those rails. Yeah, I noticed that as well. When I first saw the pic I didn't know what happened(without reading the caption) and once I read that it just blew my mind how gnarly that is. first, wheelspin on a train is badass in itself then that they are producing so much heat that they can do that to the rails. I'm curious if this damages the wheels as well. Ps. I wish I didn't have to take a damn screenshot of it but the app wouldn't allow me to just save it.

I saw this pic yesterday and thought, "This is gnarly!" I thought I'd share. As a Cowboys fan I can still have a laugh at my own espense..