the_yellow_dart

Well.. you definately couldn't leave it in gear for that extra protection. You'd be at the mercy of your parking brake.

MuchMusic (that's its channel number)

scharmer - I disagree. If the situation is as Nick corrected it, we could have the following situation: Car/plane going 50 mph forwards relative to ground. Treadmill from hell going 50 mph backwards to "counter". Wheels on car/plane are going 100 mph. It doesn't matter if you are powering the wheels or have a jet engine - if you can get the wheels going 100 mph, you can go 50 mph relative to the ground. If you look at the situation as I originally understood it, we have the following: Car/plane's wheels going x mph (doesn't matter how fast) Treadmill from hell going x mph backwards to "counter". Actual car/plane going nowhere, since the wheels are completely being countered. Again, where the power is coming from doesn't matter. The only time it matters where in the object the force is being exerted from is when the object can rotate. I'm assuming the plane stays right side up whether being driven by wheels or jet, so both situations would be the same.

BV: Where the power comes from makes no difference.

OK, that is a completely different situation then what I was picturing then. If the treadmill is only going as fast as the plane's speed, in reverse, then the plane would just need to get the wheels going twice as fast as normal and it would take off. We were arguing different situations.

Yeah, I didn't watch that much TV as a kid when the classics were on reruns. So I've never seen Gilligan's Island, I dream of jeannie, Magnum PI, Happy Days or anything like that. I think the only old TV shows I've seen are Honeymooners, MASH, Knight Rider and MacGyver.

You just violated the original stipulations with your example. If the wheels are going 300 mph, the treadmill should be going 300 mph too. Otherwise we just threw out the original question.

erm... I looked up Tina Louise but that doesn't help me know the voice. I think I'm too young to know who she is.

Remember though - even if we ignore friction entirely, it still takes energy to make mass (like in the wheels) rotate. So all the energy from the jets will go to making the wheels spin faster and faster until they melt off.

This attempt to throw me off by hitting on me was rendered less effective by the fact that I have seen much worse. You aren't 6'4" and you don't wear tight pink dresses. Therefore, I'm not so scared. It's like showing your papercut to a 'Nam vet

You're missing a very simple piece of my argument though. How can it possibly move forward if the wheels can't go faster than the treadmill? The wheels don't slide, and the plane doesn't lift without moving forward. Hence, no movement.

Just can't stop when you get that meat in your mouth, huh? ...was that too far?

Exactly. No net force = no acceleration -> no movement. No movement means no wind speed over the wings.

The engine doesn't push the plane forward because for that to happen, the wheels have to either: a. slide along (not going to happen) or b. go faster than the treadmill (which violates the question) The jets probably would create SOME wind across the wings, but not enough for takeoff. This raises another interesting question though: If a strong enough backwards wind hit a parked plane with the flaps in the right position, would it take off?

Steve Miller

Sorry guys, but I'm pretty good at physics, and I'm quite sure the plane would NOT take off. Unless your plane tires are greased and are going to slide along the treadmill, they will rotate no matter where the power is coming from. So, no matter if the power was coming from the jets or the wheels, the plane wouldn't move, because the treadmill would counteract the speed. It would probably be VERY fast though! Jets have enough power to push the large plane through the air against all that friction. If the plane was standing still and all the jets were really doing was pushing the wheels faster and faster against the backwards force of the treadmill, the wheels could get going much faster than the plane normally could, since the air would be standing still and offering much less friction then normal. Of course, that same dead air would generate no lift.

on

zeta

I can hear the rug munchers outside right now... our streets are closed off by dykes on bikes right now haha. This weekend is the gay pride parade in Toronto, and seeing how I live pretty much right in the gay district things are a little crazy and loud this weekend. The parade is going on right now. Yesterday I took the gayest elevator ride I've ever taken in my life. I get on and there are 5 men, 5 big dots on the gaydar. One wearing a pink shirt declares in a very high pitched, stereotypical "gay" voice, "Going down. Men's dresses, please!!" Note to all of the above: I use these words in a positive way. I am NOT homophobic, and am completely supportive of all of what goes on around me. An open minded girl I used to live with even took me to one of the drag queen shows at the bars here. That was interesting, to say the least... I've never been speechless before, but being hit on by a 6'4" guy in a tight pink dress just shuts me up.

Wouldn't that just be the next-gen H2T?

I'm not -really- comparing you to Mr. Rogers, OCN. You are definately more controversial than that, but at the same time you always say your provocative things in such a way that noone would get offended. ... maybe that was a bad comparison then.

My kitchen is quite interesting. The guy who decorated my place last was DEFINATELY gay. I live in a gay area so this wouldn't be surprising. The front hall was Barney the Dinosaur purple when I moved in. Yeesh. I painted that a nice green. There was another purple wall as well that I painted a chocolate brown. The kitchen I'm not so sure about. It's definately outrageous, but I kind of like it at the same time. It's got a dark green / light green marbelized countertop, deep orangey-red painted concrete floor, and very bright lemon-lime cupboards. I know those colours sound like they don't go, but somehow it works. I'm not even sure what I would change or how.

Actually - there is a good idea hiding in that sarcasm. Register to be a farmer, and you can come over legally.

$h!, as in: $h!-all, or crazy $h! you don't want to tell us about? That's the problem with profanity, sometimes it can mean too many things. Besides, profanity is the crutch of inarticulate motherf@#kers.

Where it scares me more though NOS is in places like China and India. That is where the population is moving so quickly to make this shift happen. How are they going to feed themselves if everyone moves to the city?