Croc

But Ford and Chrysler are hardly the benchmark vans in the segment. Honda Odyssey, Nissan Quest and even Kia Sedona get 5s all around. The Sienna did in 2004, when the new model bowed, but for some reason only gets 4 for the driver, both in 2005 and 2006. I doubt Toyota changed anything, but whatever. Point is, that GM is not competitive in that segment. --- Product takes time to improve, yes, but that is where the focus of the company needs to be. I just don't see where you think you can push inferior product on people better than through fire-sales. Price is the only thing GM can claim when the materials and build quality are lacking. Has GM gotten better? Well, yes. That said, they aren't there yet. Save the big marketing campaigns to get people into showrooms when the vehicles are actually deserving of the hype.

I see no problem in making cars safer up front so fewer people die. I think a combination of the two would be best. Really, I don't think that cars are getting any uglier due to the new design measures. Many European cars already were quite hideous to begin with...

Actually the pedestrian measures are more for drivers making right hand turns and not watching for pedestrians.

You'd accept an engine with 90hp and 4-cyl? Please.

Reliable? Yes. Safe? No. Minivans are decidedly lacking, even still. They need dual 5* ratings to be competitive. Fuel efficient? Depends on segment. Sometimes GM does pretty well, other times, like Aveo, it is woefully behind. GM needs more hybrid technology. DoD is a big step. Dealers need to be improved. Their level of service leaves a lot to be desired, even to long-term customers. Marketing is not a panacea, Buickman. You have yet to learn that. The overall quality of vehicles must improve and no amount of good marketing will fix the negative perceptions from having a cheap-looking product.

NG = Next Gen

Why? If I make a better burger am I obligated to credit McDonald's for making the Big Mac? No.

Actually, consumers don't have to be sophisticated at all. They just need to do what they do: sit in one, sit in the other, and decide which one seems like it has higher quality. It isn't hard and requires no college education, and it is surprisingly effective!

I just remember back on a previous DRL thread on the old boards you said you had issues driving at night because of a light sensitivity, and that you couldn't handle HIDs and were blinded by them and even some regular headlights. That's all I was referring to.

Uhhh...we get a deduction for our DRLs...

It was actually something that wasn't rare. Think: those things were high on a car and protruded beyond the bumper. Recipe for disaster.

Now THAT I can agree with. GM should be able to flush-mount everything.

BV...the thing is that most people care enough about dash quality to go to superior offerings from Toyota and Honda, or even GM's own Impala.

I don't have a problem with GM using the same radio controls in all their cars since they all look decently nice, are very ergonomic, and are quality. It helps people who have a fleet of GM cars so they don't have to relearn every control when they switch. MB uses the same layouts for all their vehicles. If you've driven one MB you've driven them all when it comes to control layout.

I trust you have great deal of experience with those, Sly?

Wow, sucks to be you. You and Paulie should get together and talk about your mutual light-sensitivity issues.

When the Rabbit of Chaos is pursued by the Ferret of Disorder across the Fields of Anarchy, it is time to hang up your pants on the Hook of Darkness--whether they're clean or not.

Don't steal the glory of the 50s!

But those subjective qualifications are what buyers are using to justify purchases of Toyotas.

Take a simple Japanese History class and you will soon see that the Japanese have been very innovative throughout history. Frankly, I think they are innovative in their uncanny sense of improving upon existing things. If their copying and improving is so looked down upon, then why wasn't the original made as well? Someone has to improve it, and if the Japanese are better at "We need to build a better ___ ." then they are still being innovative. It IS innovation that makes it a better "X" or whatever.

hmmmm...i wonder what will happen if i honk the horn 8 times in 5 seconds and whisper the secret password into the onstar mic...

Agreed, but "good enough" isn't enough to win back buyers. People who have been jaded against domestics NITPICK the hell out of them while ignoring and rationalizing problems with the foreign car they are comparing it to. My mom does this. If GM wants conquest sales it needs to be as close to perfect as possible. Lucerne should have the 3.6 in it as the base engine, if only so it is as refined as the powerplant in the Avalon.

He said a competitive V6. The 3800 is no longer competitive because it lacks refinement. It might be reliable as anything out there, but it is rough. Gas mileage is also less than impressive.

Someone's letting his true agenda show through...

Heh...If Toyota becomes the #1 automaker in the next few years, I can say that they will have deserved it with product like this. Seriously, compare this to a Malibu or a G6...