Camino LS6

I should have known it was France's fault.

Thanks for the "Cliff notes", Mouse. Sounds a bit too cutesy for me, although I'd love to see the Camino. A blown 572 in an S-10 is a bit nuts.

and

On that, I disagree. However, that's not really the point. "Gotta Have" implies really wanting to buy something, that the product elicits desire, that it is exciting and the potential buyer reacts to it in an emotional way. Toyota purchases are largely based on cold, analytical justifications and reputation for reliability and quality(rightly or not). My main point is that Toyota has shown no capacity for creating designs attract on an emotional level, and that this is a weak point that should be exploited by its competitors. For GM's part, creating cars that have this emotional punch is required as no amount of good reviews and high quality ratings will be able to get the job done alone. GM's cars must not only compete empirically, but also appeal to the emotions and sense of aesthetics. GM needs the "wow factor" just to get out of the gate.

OK, as usual we come at things from completely different perspectives. I see now what you meant.

While the showcar uses many production mechanicals, it is not really a prototype. There will be changes, even in things as basic as some of the dimensions. So, the topic title is a bit misleading.

So what? That just means all manufacturers have been lax in applying exciting styling to volume models. That doesn't make " I decided to by it because I think that I should" = "gotta have".

You've lost me here, you state that you were wrong in the past and I merely said thatperhaps you will be wrong again. Nothing more.

Which one is you,Croc? Sorry, couldn't resist. :AH-HA_wink:

Just to clarify: "Gotta Have" cars Ford GT Viper Mustang Solstice Sky Mini WRX Corvette Lotus Elise Challenger(showcar) Camaro(showcar) Charger(99 showcar) Jaguar XK8 (at debut) Escalade M3 M5 SL500 Ferrari (most models) Aston Martin(all models) PT Cruiser(at debut)

Yup, and exactly where American cars would be if they hadn't blundered into the FWD blandmobile wasteland for several decades.

No one beats me at Othello.

Exactly my point: "Gotta have"="Wow factor" Sales numbers are not in dispute here.

See your above post in which you said that both DED and yourself were wrong 18 years ago, thus my response.

C'mon man, you know as well as I do that "Gotta have" as uttered by Lutz referred to design eliciting an emotional response. Camry and such will never qualify. "Gotta have" = wow factor. Yes, I still see Maytags at Toyota and nothing more.

The RWD Holdens are the exception - they are very American in design (except for the steering wheel issue).

Not good. Sorry to hear about this,NOS. What are your plans for it?

I always miss the Firehawk stuff too, sometimes not having cable is a bitch.

With the Zetas, this makes complete sense. With the smaller cars, maybe not so much - Pontiac's place in the market needs to be consistent.

And, perhaps, you are wrong again.

No, his definition is new, inaccurate, and muddies the waters. "Gotta have" is eye-popping, exciting, design that moves a buyer toward a purchase based on emotion, not CR-like comparison shopping and reliance on perceived quality. Toyota has no such designs.

To the buying public, the OHC vs. pushrod debate is a non-issue. I doubt that you could find even 5% of new car buyers that considered it as a factor in their buying decision.

I think you have stretched the definition of "gotta have" a bit far here. These vehicles are mostly "gotta have" only in the way a good washing machine is "gotta have". The designs are conservative and bland, nothing exciting, which "gotta have " implies.

I think theyhave turned the corner and much will change in the next three years. The "bright spots" will be driving back the dark clouds at a rapid pace by then.

Something tells me that, beyond the basic shape and proportions, the GMNA zetas will look very different from the Holdens.